Annals Of The Hive
Racism In America
Over the last year or so, I've listened to a lot of talk about racism and racialism in the United States.
In less than one month, a black American will be elected President of the United States.
I've been trying to think of a European country that has or ever has had a black President or Prime Minister.
Canada? England? Ireland? France? Germany? Any of the Eastern European Countries? I'm drawing a blank, but I know there must be some.
Would somebody help me out and name some countries where black people are a minority and the President or Prime Minister is or has been a black man?
Maybe we can benefit from their experience as we overcome our racism and racialism and elect our first black President.
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Can't we lead instead of follow?
btw, Hellstrom's Hive came today per your rec. I'm going to read it over the Thanksgiving weekend. Looking forward to it.
October 10, 2008 8:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a fun book, if I remember right. Frank Herbert? A strain, scientifically.
More recent work in the vein would be Stephen Baxter's "Coalescent".
October 10, 2008 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
The grackles have arrived down thread, so I'm checking out.
Serious comments welcome here.
http://annalsofthehive.blogspot.com/
October 11, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nelson Mandela? He didn't represent the minority but an oppressed majority instead. Point taken. I can't think of another example that is closer to your question.
October 10, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
No black folks that I recall, but of ethnic minorities there are Evo Morales and, apparently, the President of Nepal.
October 10, 2008 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not gonna celebrate the end of racism in America until:
~after a very successful eight years in office, Barack and family settle down to a nice safe post-presidency retirement with a minimum of Secret Service
~he gets to open his own library
~he dies peacefully in his sleep at a very ripe old age
Then I'll consider that racism in America has been overcome.
October 10, 2008 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it would be a step in the right direction if folks would stop pointing out that Obama is black and start pointing out that John McCain is so darn white that you gotta put on sun glasses to look at him.
If skin color must be an issue at all - let it be that Obamas skin color much better represents the ethnic diversity that is present day America.
October 11, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok. Best I can think of (top of head) is Alberto Fujimori of Peru (direct Japanese descent.)
Of the industrialized world, we've seen lots of women leaders (not minorities, I know), like in Canada, the UK, Germany, Scandinavia.
There's (perhaps most relevant) been ethnic/sub-national leaders, like Gordon Brown of the UK (Scottish!!) and, of course, many French PM's in Canada. French Canadians were sometimes termed "White N*ggers," and told (certainly in my lifetime) to "Speak White." The French are a minority, whose rights were limited in many ways (including economic), effectively a different church, a very different culture, with deep policy splits on wars/taxes/etc., blockaded out of higher education, etc. So there IS something to learn there. And just as a short version, it was - and still is - pretty nasty in rural/redneck Canada. i.e. Hatred. Name-calling. Trudeau was often termed a Communist, gay, many things like that.
But perhaps better to have a French-Canadian describe this, eh?
October 10, 2008 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
That Fijimori guy had some success against the Shining Path, but wasn't he a bit of a Wall Street Stasi kind of dude? Hiding out in Japan last we heard?
October 11, 2008 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
When Barack Obama addresses the UN, he will speak as the leader of a nation that has more moral authority to lead the cause of human rights and democracy than any country in the world.
October 10, 2008 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Billy.... Is this a serious statement? Or is this more like the obligatory statements American political leaders make? The way they always say america is "the most," "the greatest", "#1" etc. I mean, I prefer Obama to any national political leader I can think of, and America still has some real moral capital it can draw on, and electing him would be a stunning act of overcoming a pretty ugly history on this front... agreed on all those fronts. But do you seriously mean that the act of electing Obama provides a complete moral refill on the democratic & human rights fronts? And one that outweighs what anyone else has done with minority groups or immigrants, in wars & international aid, etc.?
Besides. He sat on a Board with Ayers. ;-)
October 10, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not the America of today, or as it has been in recent years. The one led by President Barak Obama will be different. Hope.
Perhaps not the best, at least not right away. Hell of an act to follow, no? Given time, there's a very good chance. I've lost track of how long it's been since we could even hint of such an idea.
October 11, 2008 3:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
And it will be different because in electing Obama the American electorate will have repudiated the neoconservative agenda and Rovian politics, not to mention the cynical and unapologetic cronyism, of the Republican Party.
The American voters (taken as a whole) are doing the right thing, and that I believe is a step towards regaining our moral authority.
Based on conversations I've had with numerous European friends, some living here and some abroad, I'd boil their assessment of Obama down to this: he is the anti-hate candidate.
Obama's racial identity is interesting, but not defining, for them. They care a whole hell of a lot more about whether or not the American people really want to start World War III.
October 11, 2008 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Man, is that ever a load of crap. I'm not going to bother to provide the litany of human rights violations in which representatives of the USA government have engaged over the years, but th examples are legion.
October 10, 2008 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Billy, We have a lot of 'splainin' to do first. I truly do think that electing Barack Obama is in our very own self interest, rather than an example of our moral authority. We have a lot of atoning ahead of us; torture, false imprisonment, illegal invasion and war, and on and on.
Just one example (of many) -- Finland has greater moral authority than we do; at least they take care of their own citizens and don't go around killing other countries'.
October 11, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are there any black people in Canada?
I love this post, Billy.
October 10, 2008 9:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do too.
October 10, 2008 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
2%-3% only, Gasket. While nearly 50% is Anglo, there's also maybe 20% French, 10% Asian, 4% Native, etc. Toronto is the key to the new pattern unfolding (also seen in Vancouver), which now has the highest % (over 50%) of foreign-born citizens of any city in the world. Many Black Canadians originally arrived as part of the Underground Railway, and since then, from the Caribbean.
October 10, 2008 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
When one of them is head of your government, let me know.
October 10, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow.
October 10, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought Quinn was the head of Canada, or at least the Minister of Culture. Or is he an ear nose and throat specialist? Gotta be one of those.
October 11, 2008 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly, I no parlez the Francais. Therefore, no mainstream Cabinet post pour moi.
However. They DID put me in charge of the dogs. Our Upper House. So I got that going for me.
October 11, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll bite, Billy.
Canada's head of state is theoretically Queen Elizabeth II of England.
But for a century or so, the country has named its own governor-general, who is effectively the head of state.
For the past three years, our governor-general has been a black woman: Michaelle Jean, who emigrated (fled, you might say) in her youth from Haiti
Jean succeeded Adrienne Clarkson, born in Hong Kong to Taishanese Chinese parents. Her father worked for the Canadian embassy, and came to this country in a prisoner swap with the Japanese.
True, our prime ministers have all been WASPs, Scots-Irish or French Canadian.
But we have not been slackers in recognizing minorities and immigrants at the highest levels of government.
October 11, 2008 12:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Before Billy harshes on her & points out that she's just the Head of State (and not Head of Government), let me add that she also speaks 6 languages, and is pretty damned gorgeous. ;-)
October 11, 2008 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm too embarrassed that I put Canada on the wrong continent to harsh you further. I'm looking for a German to harsh.
October 11, 2008 8:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't even notice. Canadians are never quite sure which continent - if any - they're on anyway. The first PoMo nation, they say. Sure are a lot of trees though.
October 11, 2008 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! That was a very Canuckian response, quinn. ;-)
October 11, 2008 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
He's not a President or Prime Minister, but:
Sidney Poitier plays a Moorish prince Aly Mansuh here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldj7yeGOC0o
But the term, "Moor" includes Arabs and Berbers as well as other North African peoples.
October 10, 2008 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
As a Hillary supporter, it's hard for me to admit this, but the prospect of Obama getting elected gives me a greater sense of hope than I've had in years. Not only because it's a step forward in civil rights, but also because he's thoughtful, intelligent, rational, educated, well spoken, insightful, a true uniter not a divider, and willing to seek out and listen to good advice.
What a pleasant change that will be.
October 10, 2008 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you people telling me the United States of America is about the become the first nation in the world where the white majority elects a black President? What a bummer for the foreigners who hang around the Hive lecturing us on racism and racialism in America. Take a lesson from America. We walk the walk.
October 10, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
So is this the Piss On Foreigners post? Cool. Can't wait. Let's give those pesky Russkies what for.
October 10, 2008 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
And when the Irish turn up, I'm going to play them my favorite scene from Blazing Saddles.
October 10, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! It would serve liam right.
October 11, 2008 2:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I doubt he'd get it.
October 11, 2008 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ahhh, the Irish need some love too. Give them a taste of this when they drop by. The Pogues - Dirty Old Town.
October 11, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good example of why "We don't want the Irish!"
October 11, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I got the feeling that McBilly is blowing smoke here, not blowing music on the pipes. I wonder if the Irish still have that glorious tax policy--no taxation for writers? And wasn't that cool when they made Ken Follett(?) come back from France and really write in Ireland to get the tax break. Shoot. That wasn't Ken Follet. Which guy was that?
October 11, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL. My wife is Irish. She's hard to live with, but she can work in the EU.
October 11, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
To hell with money. Billy's wife has an EU passport. I'm gone man, just gone. I'm McCypher with health insurance and no taxes.
October 11, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jun/18/booksnews.artsnews
What they told Forsythe is priceless.
October 11, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
All income from a "creative" work such as a novel, play or song would be exempt from tax, he decided. He told the British bestseller writer Frederick Forsyth, who had moved to Ireland and availed himself of the scheme, that his plan was "not so much to bring you bastards in, but to stop the outflow of Irish talent".
October 11, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Brits claim they paid Forsyth to leave.
I know I contributed my 5 quid.
October 11, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and the French were going to tax him for writing in English,so they say. There's a joke in here somewhere.
October 11, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course you do. I get you, and I get Mel Brooks. Didn't he base the character that got hit on the head with a shovel, on you.
The reason why your wife is hard to live with, is because she has to live with you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrBLqp-s__o
October 11, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn, please. It's not to piss on foreigners. But electing Obama is no small thing. It MATTERS.
October 11, 2008 7:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's the piss on foreigners who put America down and lecture Americans on racism and racialism. I wasn't thinking of you. From you, I expected a geography lesson.
October 10, 2008 11:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Geography lesson..... that hurts. Accountancy might have been worse, but not by much.
Be careful though. I may go over to the Hive & do that wiggle-dance directional thing to let 'em know where you hide out.
October 10, 2008 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
==What a bummer for the foreigners who hang around the Hive lecturing us on racism and racialism in America. Take a lesson from America. We walk the walk.==
It depends what you mean by a "foreigner", BG.
I am foreign-born. And I have lectured native-born Americans on racialism, as I find that most of you simply don't see it - it is in the country's DNA.
Having said that, I guess what I like most about America is its ability to change probably quicker (maybe several times quicker) than other countries.
Obama's presidency would be a ground-breaking, watershead event in our history, something that will change the country for the better in just a few short years.
The final point to make, is on racialism. Obama is multiracial, not "black". Though to most white Americans he is "black", he really is one half white. I would venture a guess that his apparent success (I hope) is at least partially rooted in his ability to relate to all races in America. Had he been able to be relagated more closely to a traditional "black leader" stereotype during the primaries or the GE, he would have never been as close to clinching this election.
His apparent success this far has been truly amazing, though I worry greatly about the venomous hatred whipped up at Palin/McCain rallies. That's why I think giving any more space to the specious Ayres propaganda is very unwise.
October 11, 2008 12:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think your last point, actually, is an indication of why the premise of the whole thing is wrong.
Most of us are really not in any position to speak about the "black experience" comparatively in various nations, or of other minorities' for that matter.
But, I suppose, this type of rah-rah Americanism might be a good selling point for a certain segment of the population to overcome their prejudices (which again sadly undermines the ostensible premise of the post, though I think that may have been Pip's point to begin with).
October 11, 2008 5:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
What I see is the front pagers whipping the Hive into a frenzy about McCain/Palin whipping their crowds into a frenzy. Everybody in a frenzy may get you clicks, but it's the kind of buzz that leads to deep divisions and makes it hard to govern from the center.
We have strayed a long way from the hope that Obama will unite the country behind his agenda. The blame for that lies as much with the leaders of the Hive as it does with the wingnuts.
Are we going to deliver Obama a narrow, bitterly contested victory with no mandate, or are we going to deliver him a glorious triumph for civil rights and racial equality in America?
Is this going to be an election America can be proud of or not?
October 11, 2008 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bingo and Bravo. There's your post, Billy. Screw the rest of it.
Imagine tens of millions of Americans walking these last weeks, through the chaos, cool-headed, clear about what needs to be done, finding the courage & the grace that's been banned from the public arena these past many years - led by the skinny kid.
And what a skinny kid he is, eh? The way he has carried himself through this all gives me hope. To see millions more Americans walking the same walk, in the face of the braying, ahhhhh. That would be something Billy. The world would be happy to see America carry that flag once more. And we could happily return to our moose-tending. Well said.
October 11, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Millions of Americans ARE doing that, Quinn. It's the ground game. People aren't going door-to-door with a message of, "Can you fucking believe that guy McCain has turned into such a hate-and-fear-mongering racist bastard?"
It's still "Yes we can." And we are.
October 11, 2008 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
To me, "Yes we can" is creepy. Just as creepy as "U.S.A! U.S.A!"
October 11, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would prefer a mob of sick people in hospital beds and wheelchairs chanting HEALTH INSURACE HEALTH INSURANCE HEALTH INSURANCE. That would really be off the hook.
October 11, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now that I could deal with. I loved the scene in Sicko where the Americans get medical treatment in Cuba. :-)
October 11, 2008 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of Cuba, I was always impressed with the film clips of Castro and his men getting primitive dental care in the mountains. That's serious revolution right there. When I was living in Germany I use to fly back to the US to see my dentist. Really. No Marathon Man for me.
October 11, 2008 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. And right now the Cuban people are suffering through severe food shortages because of the hurricane season. They have to ration food, and we are doing nothing to help, because they are our "enemies?" Well, no Cuban is my enemy. The Cubans are facing famine. What is Michael Moore doing about it? How about loading up a boat with food and taking it to Cuba, Michael?
October 11, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Micheal Moore-- Sir Thomas Moore. Legendary principled men, no? Ancestry chart, please.
October 11, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Almost nobody is helping the Haitians either. You can help people in both countries who lost everything in Hurricane Gustave by donating at
http://www.panamericanrelief.org/?
October 11, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not to dwell on the point but Haiti os the kind of Third World country that Robert Kaplan suggests cannot be saved from anarchy. Not to say that helping them in an humanitarian effort isn't worthy. Trying to being democracy to them didn't work out though.
October 11, 2008 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, the ecology of Haiti is certainly in ugly shape. But other densely-populated, war-torn, island nations have made it. As for the human capability there, I'll reference back to Michaelle Jean, as acanuck mentioned, Canada's Head of State, and her Haitian story.
October 11, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Which islands? Curious.
October 11, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ummmm, Japan. The UK.
They had a few barney's in their time.
October 11, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Really big Islands then. Not Trinidad for example. Not sure Japan is at all comparable. A relatively stable culture with some specific upheavals for more than a thousand years. Pushed out the older Ainu tribal culture into the north. T
October 11, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think our despair over Haiti colours what is possible, which we then hang on some "objective" measure. Here's a pop density list. See any island successes? Here.
October 11, 2008 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are we using as the defining measure of "success"?
October 11, 2008 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
People like the chant, what can I say. I tend to not participate unless it's an angry chant. I wonder what that says about me.
I do love that the Obama campaign appropriated it from the United Farm Workers. Grassroots at its best.
October 11, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sometimes. We also walk the same road as many others. The difference is what we consider to be the truth, compared to their opinions.
Here in America? Our words and actions overwrite the foreign "vote". Just as their words overrule us.
Funny, the world still behaves as a unit - whether we choose to be a part of it or not.
October 11, 2008 7:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
The world still behaves as a unit? Please explain.
October 11, 2008 10:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
since bg has dropped out because of birds - he probably won't see this. His rabid denial of race-based forces at work in this election season has bordered on the irresponsible. He has berated, insulted, called names - as if the very word "race" called forth in him a knee jerk denial.
well bg - you are a bit of a bully, you deny when it suits you, you embrace when it suits the image you are creating in the 'sphere. Here's another link bg - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/11/john-lewis-civil-rights-l_n_133881.html -
October 11, 2008 7:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Point taken. We need to regain some moral authority, and Obama as prez wouldn't hurt.
October 10, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
HA HA HA HA... a favorite scene among favorite scenes.
I'm glad someone has finally noted the remarkable circumstance of a nation electing a member of an oppressed minority to the highest seat of power. (A purely symbolic Untouchable President in India don't count...)
October 11, 2008 1:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, it's kind of a big deal.
Electing a woman as President will be a big deal, too.
But we probably shouldn't get too happy about it until such things are no longer remarkable.
'Course by then, I'll probably be dead. So actually, Nov. 4th will be tequila night after all!
October 11, 2008 1:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
When Barack Obama addresses the UN, he will speak as the leader of a nation that has more moral authority to lead the cause of human rights and democracy than any country in the world.
Right on, Billy. I'm a writer who lives in Asia. I travel. The Bushies have pissed on our good name and embarrassed us. We're ridiculed, scorned, mocked. We're better than that. Hard to be an ex-pat these days. How we ever put up with such lying claptrap is infuriating.
October 11, 2008 7:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's all about to change. Now we've got to get serious about gender and income.
October 11, 2008 8:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Billy, but Barack is still only half-black. We have a looooong way to go. :)
October 11, 2008 8:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
We'll get there. And, as the first commenter points out, we'll be leading again, not following, no matter what the yentas on the front page would have you believe about America.
October 11, 2008 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was being sarcastic. I think this election is one of the most defining moments in our history we will face regarding electing a so-called minority of our population. Compared to me I find Obama quite extraordinary and representative of what I believe the "majority" should be.
October 11, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
First off, when did 'nauts become bees? And isn't it true that bee-keepers keep bees in a state of stupor by blowing smoke on them? Just wondering as a former 'naut historian who has to move from rowing to smoking.
Billy's right on the main point: The perception of America's history of racism will be turned on its head with an Obama victory. And the possibilties for moral leadership against racism would be quite extraordinary on Nov. 5.
October 11, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not to diminish the significance of the event, but it most assuredly will not.
The crucial question is whether something actually happens to race relations in the country. Otherwise, in this narrow respect, Obama is just a flag pin.
October 11, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, you're right. I phrased that rather clumsily. Not the "history of racism" at all, but the triumph over it by anti-racist forces, especially the civil rights movement. Thanks for the correction.
Racism isn't going anyway. An Obama presidency will drive the storm trooping, hide-in-Idaho types more to the sheets. But the symbolism will help turn minds of coming generations, indeed, as minds of so many of the younger generations have already been changed.
I never thought I would see an Obama in my lifetime. I never thought I would see a winking, illiterate Palin nominee for that matter. Two sides of a coin, but the flip is looking good.
October 11, 2008 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
And yet, Cypher, how much of a stupor do we have to be in not to realize that an Obama Presidency means something has already "happened" to race relations in America?
The fact is the naysayers are wrong. This event not only signifies great progress, it is the result of great progress.
I'm sick and tired of the America bashers around here. I suspect they feed on division, not unity.
October 11, 2008 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Co-signed! (Or whatever the current Hivespeak is.)
October 11, 2008 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Period, Amen.
I will criticize this nation till the cows come home to the Upper Westside, but I am unapologetically in love with this country and the multitude of people from all over the world who have come to call the United States of America their home.
On the race and the cookie-cutter approach thereto of the hive (ya know, only liberal white folks and an occasional contrarian from the hinterland like Tena are gonna vote for Obama because everyone else is a racist), I have written before that Senator Obama's election will be a great victory in the long and continued battle against racism in this country. The salient point, however, is that Senator Obama's election is only a battle and not the war. Billy, the hive about which you speak appreciates not what really means racism I say. What we must keep in mind is that after the election the scourge of racism in a tangible sense, that nagging inequality of opportunity between blacks and whites in this country, will remain and will have to be dealt with. That's what I'm talking about.
October 11, 2008 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It IS the result of great progress.
When I travel, I often find America means about the same as "The 60's" do to many people. i.e. People can project onto it. I remember the 80's, when it became clear the media wanted to say everyone from the 60's had "sold out." They pushed the "yuppie" meme, and stuck a camera on Rubin, who became the face & the facet of the 60's everyone was to see, to love or hate. Much of the world does the same to "America." If you want to see Bush, Iraq, the mega-bankers, no Kyoto, Britney - you can. It's easy to hate. But it can just as easily turn to see Obama, action in Darfur, the inventors, solar PV & The Hold Steady. And yes, I know this is trite. But Americans see America the same way. Self-loathing alongside justified anger & effort for change.
Besides, broad shoulders & all.
October 11, 2008 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps the lesson for the hive is Obama is not an America basher and sees his candidicy as an important move beyond racism.
The mark of thoughtful political positions are nuaces, historical reference and negotiating the grey areas, the slipping of the fault lines of social changes. The mark of a less nuanced position is the opposition target as the core of the belief, and throwing darts as evidence of some intellectual position. which it ain't. No criticism on the exellect game of darts in the pub though.
Witness the ultimately fatal "thinking" of American Communists who couldn't deal with the truth of Stalin by continuing to use Hitler as the basis of a political stance. Stalin was good, Hitler was bad, thus Stalin is still good.
October 11, 2008 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
O you just fucked my head all up, Billy, cause I couldn't agree with you more. It's one of my betes noires - the liberal bashing of Americans as stupid and the general America bashing. God knows America has been guilty of all kinds of shit, but there isn't a nation on earth that hasn't been.
There is no righteous nation. I don't think there ever will be.
October 11, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know. I liked the Sumerians quite a lot. Inventing writing and all that.
October 11, 2008 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Curious then that you recently chose to refer to Sarah Palin's "trailer park parenting skills," as if you have some familiarity with what the use of that term connotes.
October 11, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. The naysayers are wrong. And my head is spinning now because I agree with you and I'm waiting for you to say it was all a joke.
October 11, 2008 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
The fact that he will be President, and probably by a decent margin even in states that Bush won in 2004, will be proof that a great deal has changed.
Everything? No, but it'll be powerful evidence that something fundamental has shifted, perhaps forever.
October 11, 2008 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like after 9/11, there's going to be an extraordinary opening - who knows for how long - for America to reclaim its international moral leadership. Because Obama - and Americans' support for him - has the whole world watching. Canada's election is next week, but our leaders' debate was outdrawn by the US VP one on the same night. When I think of what Obama would mean, I skip past Berlin and think of a country like Indonesia. 220 million people - 4th most in the world, more than Russia or Japan. Both Asian and Muslim. And with an enormous number of Muslims not as set in the Middle Eastern model. The good will this will create there will be enormous. What a chance for America's positives to come forward. Yeah baby.
October 11, 2008 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
From recorded comments of brood mother Trova Hellstrom as related in Hellstrom's Hive.
"Some threat is good for a species. It tends to stimulate breeding, to raise the level of awareness. (And increase revenue -- Billy Glad) Too much, however can have a stupefying effect. (But still increase revenue -- Billy Glad) It is one of the tasks of Hive leadership to adjust the level of stimulating threat."
October 11, 2008 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm going to take a gloomier side in the inner mechanics of the hive cosmos. And I'm going to risk again the charge of being a secret neo thing by pointing to Robert Kaplan. Kaplan sees old tribal and ethinic tension among groups in various places in the world as growing in the face of modernity and the rapid decrease of resources including water, and growing populations competing for land--and all ignited and ramped up by the availiabilty of cheap but effective arms from uzis to rocket launchers.
There's not much Obama can do about the myriad situations in the Third World in which twelve year olds have uzis and not food. Anachy is inevitable.
So, anybody think that the Texas Longhorns can beat Ohio? UCLA at Oregon?
October 11, 2008 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the Hive is ripe for Orson Welles.
October 11, 2008 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rosebud or Martian?
October 11, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Martian.
Alas, if Josh Marshall were truly talented, he could be our Welles.
October 11, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
TPM main is broadcasting fiction. That fiction is being accepted as fact by Hive members who use TPM as their primary source of information and opinion. I spend so much time here, I'm forced to watch Fox News, just to stay sane.
October 11, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can't say I have this problem at TPM. First of all, my avatar keeps changing without my doing. That's kind of too splitzo even for me, so hanging in is bad for my therapy sessions. Kind of more fun to buzz in and out. Curious however what happenes after the election when --assuming the best--Obama is in and there's no enemy around except a bunch of mad Republicans. What will the posts read like then? "Palin:Still a Danger in Alaska?"
October 11, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Which was better--War of the Worlds on radio, 1958? film version, or most recent film?
October 11, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Josh Marshall is very talented rtbg. It's the choices he's made that I find interesting, and it's the future that I find compelling, i.e., how does one go from being an unambiguous part of a campaign, as distinguished from being a journalist with a liberal bent, to being, post-election, an objective and critical journalist again? I mean no disrespect to Josh, he needs to put food on his table like the rest of us, but I don't read the front page at TPM anymore, just as I don't watch FoxNews or MSNBC. It's all the same, and it might be journalism, but it's a different journalism than the kind that Josh used to practice back in the day.
October 11, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
What you said, bslev!
(I think I may have gotten there a little bit before ya, but that's nothing to be happy about. Anyhow, you described it well.)
October 11, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bruce, you are an extremely generous person. One of several qualities I've noticed from your comments that I admire.
But you need not be so generous to Josh that you assign him more talent than he actually possesses. Josh has an excellent education, but he has no journalism degree or formal training as a journalist. He got into journalism by writing freelance. That doesn't earn him the title of talented and (especially) critical journalist. And from what I've read about two of his former staff, I wonder how much credit he takes for their work. Maybe time will tell.
In any case, there is nothing for Josh to "go back to" after the election. He'll keep doing what he's doing right now: sorting through news stories from other organizations and summarizing them for mass consumption here. Sure, he has a talent for that, but I wouldn't rate it remotely comparable to Orson Welles's creative talent. That's what I meant by "true talent." Josh's talent lies in the creation of his empire, of his "brand." But he is no artist or modern-day philosopher. He's a businessman. Nothing wrong with that. Someday he'll sell his brand and do something else.
I'd argue he's not really a liberal, either. Certianly not like you, anyway. ;-)
October 11, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you think the financiers didn't make out like bandits, check out this arithmetic.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/10/how-i-earned-480-million.php
October 11, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sure they did - but you know, when bandits are standing there with a gun on your kids and threatening to pull the trigger, what the hell can you do?
Even Paul Krugman has said that it was too dangerous a situation to do nothing.
October 11, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
The minority has consistently run this country:
The wealthy
Military Officers
Attorneys
Ivy League education
We still have a nation that favors certain elite minorities and confuse their connection to these minority factors as "experience." Black, white, Latino, Asian, etc... that identification has little bearing when compared to whether or not they belong to "favorable" elite groups that we factor in unconsciously.
This is not denigrating Barack Obama, who is politically savvy and intelectually powerful. However, his race would be a definitive negative if he had not rubbed shoulders in the Ivy Leagues.
Ultimately, we must realize that our collective resume values politicians who come from the same small and select pedigree. This is what makes Sarah Palin dangerous in spite of her obvious flaws. She is not connected to the elite pedigree but the underground dominionist community that has risen to power as the political wing of a militant organization that begain with the John Birch Society.
I think we can truly celebrate as a nation when we elect someone as our leader who is connected to the middle class education system and upbringing This would mean that our nation has so elevated common education that anyone with political inclinations could rise from the grass onto the clouded peak of Mt. Olympus.
I mean, look deeply at the problems that have plagued this nation over the last 30 years... they are the same philosophical problems that existed since this nation's founding. This is because all of the "philosopher kings" we have elected come from the same narrow Ivy League education that perpetuates this friction. Our leaders are enculturated and indoctrinated during their formative idealistic periods to view government through the same bicameral prism. Our halls of government are saturated with a 300 year old mindset which is a tyranny of 18th century narrow-mindedness.
Why do we have the same financial disasters every generation? Why do we experience the same variations of miltiary/social turbulence... why the same enantiodromia? They are narrow psychic tensions reenacted on young minds as they attend a University that frame all politics on the same golden nail.
October 11, 2008 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll look for your blog and comments from now on. My son was with the 2nd Marine Division in Desert Storm. He used to call home and ask my wife and I to put the phone on speaker and talk to each other.
October 11, 2008 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very impressive and thought-provoking post Zipperupus. Thanks.
October 11, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. His comment reminds me of the line in the film Amadeus, when Mozart tells Solieri something like "your funny little melody yielded some good things."
October 11, 2008 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about a quote that's not from some foreigner, eh?
October 11, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't get me started on that Nobel Prize thing.
October 11, 2008 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't get me started on Amadeus. Good film, yeah. But the play on Broadway was sensational.
October 11, 2008 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
3rded. Except for the enantiodromia. One of my dogs got that once. According to him, painful as hell.
And the Dominionist thing is deep weird. Palin's got some nasty working there, that needs to be beat, this election.
October 11, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would argue that in the 20th century, both Harry Truman (not even a college degree!) and Jimmy Carter were such:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman#Personal_life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter#Early_life
And an interesting thing is, "the people" ended up rejecting both of them as doing a poor job, both with abysmal approval ratings at the end.
If you want to go further back, you have the infamous example of Andrew Jackson.
October 11, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting. Carter presided over our "humiliation" at the hands of the Iranians. Truman presided over our "loss" of China. And Obama is about to preside over our "loss" of the Middle East.
October 11, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
What loss of China? When did we own it, and who did we lose it to? I sure hope that we did not lose China to the Chinese. That would be just awful. Hey Chinese people, give back China to it's rightful owner, the USA.
October 11, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I believe he's referring to what happened in 1949, and our relationship with China under Truman.
October 11, 2008 9:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
But Obama fits the Ivy Leaque elite thing that Zipperupus is pointing out.
October 11, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I shouldn't have left out Nixon, of course, a very special case. He famously resented having to turn down a chance to enter the world of the Ivy League elite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon#Early_life
He was always one to play up the middle class background, with the "Pat Nixon wears cloth coats" thing, etc., and many pop biographers emphasize the resentment of the power elite by him, i.e. "you won't have Dick Nixon to kick around any more" type of statements, seeming almost at times to raise his class resentment against the power elite to the level of martyrdom.
October 11, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have the same financial disasters, over and over, because you keep putting the Republicans back in power to create them.
But on the bright side, while they make sure that you always end up without a pot to piss in, or a window to throw it out off, they will have saved your marriages from the gays. So, you will have that to comfort you, while you stand in the soup lines, once again.
When the Democrats restore you to economical health, once more, then you will rush back once more to the Republicans to save you from The Gays, while the Republicans once more cook up another financial disaster.
Count your blessings. If it was not for the occassional Republican financial disaster to distract you, then you would be gripped in the arms of a perpetual dread of Gays.
So look on the bright side.
October 11, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just want to say that except for Cypher's attempt to stir up the Texas v. Ohio State feud, this thread is what I always hope the threads for my blogs will look like, but seldom do.
October 11, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I donno. I think it could use a little more something.">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTyQbYT36vw">something.
There. Solid gold, baby.
October 11, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hard to think of anything that couldn't use more cowbell.
October 11, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Longhorns trail by one at the half. Horns will beat the spread.
October 11, 2008 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
==What I see is the front pagers whipping the Hive into a frenzy about McCain/Palin whipping their crowds into a frenzy. Everybody in a frenzy may get you clicks, but it's the kind of buzz that leads to deep divisions and makes it hard to govern from the center.==
I don't think anyone around here is in a "frenzy". This is the same thing that happened during the FISA vote - those who did not "agree" with the position that this was a none issue were labeled "hysterical leftists" or "constitutional fundamentalists" or some such.
In this case, those who refuse to see anything in the Ayres story other than political propaganda and insist that open hatred at Palin/McCain rallies is the real story are called "in a frenzy". It is the same old boring bs - no substance, just more vaccuous verbal attacks.
==We have strayed a long way from the hope that Obama will unite the country behind his agenda. The blame for that lies as much with the leaders of the Hive as it does with the wingnuts.==
I don't even understand what this means. Your thread was celebrating Obama's upcoming victory as "black man", which "proves" what a non-racist country America is. Now you appear to be bashing him for lack of agenda.
==Are we going to deliver Obama a narrow, bitterly contested victory with no mandate, or are we going to deliver him a glorious triumph for civil rights and racial equality in America?==
I am not going to "deliver" him anything - I will vote for the guy, put some signs up, talk to some people. I don't view political leaders in the same "glorious" way you do.
==Is this going to be an election America can be proud of or not?==
Probably not, just like great majority of past elections. But the blame here is far more deservant for Palin/McCain side, which has up to now been spreading obvious smears and whipping their crowds into outbursts of verbal violence.
Why do American liberals so quick to throw ashes on their heads and scream "mea culpa"? I don't think Obama's campaign has done too many "unproud" things, and if anything has been slow to get a bit aggressive. Most of their strong ads are really issue ads, perhaps with the exception of the recent series of "erratic" commercials. But hey, McCain is erratic!
I think your position, if I can understand it, is that Obama and "frenzied" liberals are failing to bring about an "united, issues-based" victory. I don't quite see, how we can "convince" those folks at McCain rallies that denounce Obama as "terrorist", "Arab" and "unamerican" to examine his record and positions with an ubiased view, so they too can see that he would make a far better president than their party's candidate. Besides, I don't really beleive in working super hard at changing people's minds - this is their decision and we should at some level respect that.
October 11, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
No. My point is that foreign observors should STFU about racism and racialism in America until they walk the walk in their own countries, and that Americans should conduct themselves in a way they and Obama can be proud of after Obama wins the election. Which of those propositions do you disagree with?
October 11, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The first one, I guess. Racism and racialism in America is a live fact, witnessed daily at Palin/McCain rallies. I don't see any reason for foreign observers to STFU, pretty much about anything in America - heck, we actually invade foreign countries, not just criticize them.
The second one I don't understand. We should all try to conduct ourselves in a way we can be proud of. I don't see what Obama has to do with that - he is a politician, not a pope. And I certainly don't understand what that has to do with noticing that Palin/McCain rallies have a distinct racist whiff to them, not to mention a real danger of political violence directed at our candidate. Further, I really don't see how striving for proud personal conduct (or even Obama's approval) is helped by carrying the "Ayres" propaganda further than it deserves, which you have been noted for lately.
What say you?
October 11, 2008 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I'll tell you. The front page at TPM is so out of touch with reality now, that I originally intended Annals Of The Hive to document Josh and Company in a fact check sort of way.
Then I realized they make their money out of sensationalism and rabble rousing, but that we the readers don't have that excuse.
Floating petitions that defend domestic terrorists that the other side is trying to tie to our candidate is an example of the kind of distraction we don't need right now. Making martyrs out of the Weather Underground is, too.
But, although you and people like you are the object of this post, I don't expect you either to shut up or share to your experience of overcoming racism and racialism in your own country.
I'd never go as far as Rosenberg does in advising you what to do. As far as I'm concerned, you can stick around and talk about things you know nothing about as long as you like.
But, since you can't speak from personal experience about the civil rights movement in America or about the Weathermen, you'll forgive me if I don't particularly value what you have to say.
October 11, 2008 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know why you are upset at TPM. They are not out of "touch" - every mainstream outlet now reports that Palin/McCain rallies have become the refuge of the bigoted and angry, to a point when McCain has to try (ineffectually) to tamp down the anger of her/his supporters they both worked hard to cultivate. I don't think TPM offered the petition on Ayres, either.
I don't have much experience with racism in Soviet Union except some mild anti-semitism - I was only 13 when we came to the US. Most of my life has been spent here.
I don't take any special knowledge claims on these subjects and am completely fine with you ignoring anything I say.
I, however, can't make the same promise, because it appears that under the guise of fighting "rabid liberalism" or whatever, you constantly drag McCain talking points into the TPM discussions.
October 11, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dimitry,
You might like Tolsoy's essay "On the Question of Negroes," if you're not familiar with it.
October 11, 2008 9:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
And now I'll have to say that someone like you turning up with crapspeak like I'm "bashing Obama" is exactly what I've come to expect from The Hive.
October 11, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
There it is!
The Whine Of The Yellow WASP Loser.
October 11, 2008 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL. Here comes the swarm! Cya, folks. I'm out of here.
October 11, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, the gist of the this entire Whine OF The Yellow WASP Loser is;
I Billy Glad, The Yellow WASP loser, is:
I fully opposed the nomination of Barack Obama, and every thing that John McCain has said and done is brilliant and wonderful, while Obama has done everything wrong. But let me, Billy The Yellow WASP loser, tell you something folks; when that Obama guy, that I have been completely opposed to, every step of the way, gets sworn in as president, then I will point to the rest of the world and say; look world, we have just elected a black man as our president, and therefore we are the planet's superior moral authority.
I, Billy, The Yellow WASP loser, sure hope that it does not happen, but if it does, then I will use it to taunt the rest of the world.
The Whine Of The Yellow WASP Loser, as sung by Billy Yellow WASP Loser Glad.
October 11, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bullseye, you hit the bullseye!
October 11, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now that the grackles are here, I'm checking out.
Serious comments welcome here.
http://annalsofthehive.blogspot.com/
Thanks for your participation everyone. I'll try to incorporate your comments.
October 11, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Adios, Whining Yellow WASP Loser. Don't let the hive door hit you in your Yellow WASP ass.
October 11, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also,
Civil rights leaders appear to be quite concerned with recent Palin/McCain tactics, unlike you:
-------------------------------------------------
John Lewis Condemns GOP Campaign Tactics
By Shailagh Murray
Rep. John Lewis of Georgia, a Civil Rights-era leader, condemned GOP campaign tactics as "sowing the seeds of hatred and division," drawing an immediate and angry response from Sen. John McCain.
Although McCain and his Republican running mate, Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, have toned down their rhetoric against Sen. Barack Obama in the past day, Lewis warned of "another destructive period in American history" if the negative attacks from both the candidates and their surrogates don't cease.
"As one who was a victim of violence and hate during the height of the Civil Rights Movement, I am deeply disturbed by the negative tone of the McCain-Palin campaign," Lewis said in a statement. "Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin are sowing the seeds of hatred and division, and there is no need for this hostility in our political discourse."
The veteran Democrat even invoked one of the most divisive figures in recent U.S. history. "During another period, in the not too distant past, there was a governor of the state of Alabama named George Wallace who also became a presidential candidate. George Wallace never threw a bomb. He never fired a gun, but he created the climate and the conditions that encouraged vicious attacks against innocent Americans who were simply trying to exercise their constitutional rights. Because of this atmosphere of hate, four little girls were killed on Sunday morning when a church was bombed in Birmingham, Alabama," said Lewis.
...
-------------------------------------------------
You appear to be more concerned with a far-fetched potential of an old 60's radical getting rehabilitated, than with the candidate of your party being attacked.
I question your priorities, comrade...
October 11, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's a grackle? And if I look real hard can I see one from my house?
October 11, 2008 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I know what The Whining Yellow WASP loser claims it is. A bird that soils other birds nests, and then flies away. He often claims that I do not have the right to comment on his blogs.
However, if you read down through the comments, you will find that Billy, and his cluster of Whining Yellow WASP losers, were tossing my name around freely, when I had not posted a single comment on here. Look at the times that The Yellow WASPS posted their comments, and look at times, when I decided that I had every right to respond.
Billy is just another Bully, who can not handle some one standing up to him. He is like his hero McCain at debate time.
October 11, 2008 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Guess that explains why he wants serious comments only. I was joking dumbass.
October 11, 2008 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I knew you were, by the shot at Palin, but I just wanted to leverage it into another shot at The Whining Yellow WASP loser. He took plenty of them at me for several hours, when I was not on here.
October 11, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I gotcha. wink...
October 11, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
You betcha, yup yup.
October 11, 2008 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry Billy. I won't do that again.
October 11, 2008 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that electing Obama will be a watershed moment not only in American History but very likely world history, and for the reason Billy mentions.
That would never persuade me to vote for him for President though. I simply happen to think he is by far the best candidate in the election. That's it. I would feel the same way about Hillary if she were the nominee, and for that matter the rest of the former Democratic hopefuls (excepting Edwards, who would have been a disaster).
We had, up and down, the better selection of candidates by far this year. The guy we nominated is good. Really; he'll do. Whether or not we're setting some kind of "good example" for the rest of the world is really a matter for foreigners and historians to consider. For my part I'll be happy if we can dig ourselves out the hole the Republicans have put us in. And in fact that is the kind of example the rest of the world will pay the most attention to anyway.
October 11, 2008 7:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about Nelson Mandela of South Africa?
October 12, 2008 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink