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Why I'm not panicking, part 2: concern trolls give me hope


Over here (if that linky thing works) I wrote a bit about why I'm not panicking.  And some of that was about concern trolls, which led to some people asking whether I thought they were concern trolls simply because they were worried.  A concern troll or just a "nervous nellie", as one commenter put it.

First, about concern trolls.  Being concerned doesn't make someone a concern troll.   A concern troll sounds something like this:
(Concern troll mode ON!) 
Oh crap!  Have you seen the latest electoral college projections?  I don't see how Obama can win now.  I really don't.  Why are liberals such idiots?  Can't they see that Palin was a masterful choice by McCain?  Of course she was fully vetted!  And why can't liberals see that pointing out Palin's lies is only going to backfire on them?  I'm a loyal Democrat but I'm afraid I'm just going to have to wait until 2012 to have any hope of seeing a Democrat in the white house, thanks to Obama and his obnoxious Obamabots who keep calling me a concern troll even though all I'm doing is pointing out that they're stupid and Obama has doomed the Democratic party.
(Concern troll mode OFF!)
Some concern trolls are more subtle, but that's the gist of it.  Take out the "concern" part and it's mostly wingnut talking points.  Deliberate and repeated attempts to exaggerate negatives and minimize or ignore positives, wrapped up in feigned concern.

And common another characteristic of concern trolls is certainty about doom.   It's not "I'm worried that the Republicans might eat our lunch again this year."  It's "here's why the Republicans are going to eat our lunch this year."  

Their purpose is to spread gloom and doom, and asserting that the gloomy outcome is inevitable is a better way to spread doom and gloom.   And if they can't find legitimate arguments, they'll latch onto whatever they can get.  In their most desperate state you might even find one of them quoting some wingnut pundit as "proof" that the Republicans are going to eat our lunch this year.   Nothing else, just quoting some wingnut pundit who is high on Palin fumes.  But from that they conclude .... we're dooomed, doooooooomed, doooooooooooooooooooooooooomed!


The thing is, I'm a "nervous nellie" by nature.  But I'm not panicking about November, at least not yet, although I remain poised to leap into full panic mode, because, as I said, I'm a nervous nellie by nature.

But I find the concern trolls encouraging, believe it or not.  You know that if there's a valid concern to find they'll find it and bring it here to express their deep, deep concern.  In between reminders that they're loyal democrats and just concerned at the way Obama is dragging the party down to certain doom, of course.

But are they finding valid concerns?  Let's take a look at the Palin angle.  How do they get from the choice of Palin for a running mate to gloooooom and dooooooom?

They point out, accurately, that Palin could turn out to save McCain's campaign. Well sure, in theory, that's not impossible, but they make their case by ignoring the huge, huge negatives that Palin brings to the ticket.  Having to use his veep pick to lock up the base vote took a lot of flexibility away from McCain. 

He ended up with an unvetted, incompetent, dishonest, vindictive running mate, and with no choice but to join with her in trying to sell a facade of lies for six more weeks.   I'm not denying her positives.  She's got an undeniable knack for playing to the camera, and a life story and views that appeal very strongly to social conservatives.  It could be a disaster for Obama.  But she's barely gotten started, and there are so, so many ways she could take down the ticket.  But you'll only hear the pro-Palin case from wingnuts and concern trolls.

They adopt a "voters don't care about lying" premise, and with a shoulder shrug and a sigh they pull a blanket of helplessness and defeat over their heads.   And yours, too, if you let them.

They start from a "Rove can do no wrong" premise."  Palin looks like a desperate, unvetted choice, and the McCain/Palin campaign has degenerated into nothing but a facade of lies.  But Rove is behind this campaign, isn't he?  Therefore ... it must be a trick!  She must be a brilliant pick!  Etc. 

Then of course they look at the convention bounce as if it were something other than a convention bounce, they look at old polls and polls within the margin of error and so on and cherry-pick the "evidence" that Palin is clobbering Obama.  And so on, and so on, and so on.

Go back over the case they make and strip out the half-truths and the cherry-picked evidence, push back on the gloom-doom-and-helplessness assumptions that are the foundation for their case, and what's left?

Not much. 

It's the absolute best case for concern they can come up with.  A few of them are very good at wrapping even half-assed concerns in powerful rhetoric, but strip that away and they don't have much at all to use to pump up concerns.  If they had a stronger case for concern, they'd be making it.

When they can make a strong case for concern, without the disingenuous arguments and exaggerated negatives and gloomy assumptions, then I'll panic.  It could happen.  But so far the concern trolls are as desperate and as dishonest as McCain himself. 

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I have been reminded lately that the winning of an election takes place out of view of the media (the camera and the ads) and polls. In short, the team with best ground game wins the elections. We really have to wait because there are a ton of new voters coming down the pike this November. I can affirm that the Democrats are looking under every rock for potential voters. I received a voter registration form (for the first time) in Ohio and I haven't lived in Ohio for better than twenty years.

I think that model is based on the assumption that voters are just passive dummies who need to be driven to the polls to punch the card, don't you think? And it also assumes that the other side is not doing the same GOTV effort. And that the party ID remains at June/July levels.

Do you, by chance, know the percentage of eligible voters who voted in 2004?

60.7%.

About 79 million people did not vote.

Now, lest you misunderstand, I am personally appalled by such disappointing behaviour, but I can state it as a fact that GOTV is of paramount importance in this imperfect world.

That, and I remember a certain someone lamenting the unfairness of caucuses because some people would not be able to get there for one reason or another, transportation, child care and so on.

Of course it is. But relying solely on GOTV is not wise imo

If we were relying solely on GOTV, your concern, if you'll pardon the expression, would be justified. But we're not.

Historically, the side with the superior GOTV in a given state does 3-5% better than the last pre-election polling in that state indicated. In Ohio in 2004, the Dems relied on their old model of GOTV--which was basically to outsource it to the unions and the ward heelers with little or no support or supervision by national--and the Republicans beat us. This year, the Republicans are just now starting to reboot their system. McCain just let lt languish for the better part of a year because, as a guy who's rep was made by the national media, as a pilot and as a swabbie, the ground game bores him and he doesn't understand it. Because he let it languish, they're going to war with v. 2.0 implemented in two months and we're going to war with v. 3.0 with nineteen months behind it. So we are most likely to get the 3-5% bump this time.

The trick is to keep it close enough in the other half of the campaign--the national media war, the polls and the cooption of local media in the swing states with campaign appearances--for that 3-5% to be decisive. If we don't do that, you're right that GOTV is wasted effort. But, by the same token, if we don't have the superior GOTV effort, we lose if its a close one.

I find spirit when I can read The Corner with a smile...and K-Lo makes my heart swell. The more adamant they are, the better Barack is doing...

This is what Young College Republicans do...it's called astroturfing.

Rush's "Operation Chaos" is working.

Just not the way he intended. LOL

Bob Bob... you're still into the whole bogeyman-creating, censoring based on what YOU think schtich. Oh you campaign genius. Some people seem to like it. But I suspect Obama would find you utterly ANTI-Obama in how you approach any discussion.

But hey, I'm sure there are hundreds of dangerous posts out there wherein people ONLY discuss Palin's strengths and who think that Rove is unbeatable. YessireeBobBo, that is just bang on.

No Bo bBob, YOU'RE the dangerous type. You leap in where you know nothing of the people involved on a post, and less about what is being attempted in the discussion. And your advice? My God... It's breathtaking in its insight.

"Wait & See," saith the Bob.
"Then.... we can all Panic later."

So anyone that tries to have a serious discussion while Bob Bob says WAIT... well, they must be concern trolls. But apparently, I'm a moron for not seeing that Concern Trolls are perhaps the greatest threat to the Obama campaign, and perhaps even the Union.

"Concern Troll" - Bob Bob's new witch-hunt.

You're equating "serious discussion" with, for example, someone who posts a link to a wingnut pundit and states that it shows how the Republicans will eat our lunch. Not even might eat our lunch. Will eat our lunch. Based on the musings of some wingnut pundit, they conclude that we're doooooomed!

You're equating "serious discussion" with, for example, someone who finds an electoral college projection based on treating statistically insignificant differences as if they were statistically significant. And probably knows better, but sacrificed integrity a long time ago because that's what it takes to be a concern troll.

But apparently, I'm a moron for not seeing that Concern Trolls are perhaps the greatest threat to the Obama campaign, and perhaps even the Union.

You're no moron. In fact, you're so much NOT a moron that you know I didn't say that Concern Trolls are the greatest threat to the Obama campaign, or any threat at all to the Obama campaign, much less a threat to the Union.

But then, if you know I didn't say that, why would you pretend I did?

No, the Concern Trolls (do I have to capitalize their title now?) are no threat to the Obama campaign. This site has a hundred or so active posters in the cafe. A few hundred comments per day and a few hundred recs per day, total. Posts get to the top-ten list with less than a dozen recs, which suggests that there aren't a huge number of readers either. TPM's focus is obviously not on building readership here in this little cafe.

The Concern Trolls toss an occasional Concern Bomb into the Cafe. They get their jollies (or perhaps in some cases, a sort of lame-ass revenge on the "Obamabots" because Hillary Wuz Robbed, dontchaknow) that way. They have an immeasurably small effect on the Obama campaign. They're annoying. They're dishonest. They hate to be unmasked.

The idea that they're having a measurable negative impact on the Obama campaign is just wishful thinking on their part. And yours too, apparently.

Bob Bob. Try this simple test. How many HUNDREDS of posts, and thousands of comments, hacking the polls apart as being unfair to Obama, on this site? And YOU'RE worried about a couple who test-drive the other thesis? Same with links to Republican commenters. We get HUNDREDS linking to our side, our writers. Fair statement?

And you make clear that you KNOW this doesn't hurt anyone. At least, anyone grown up enough to handle a discussion with other people who don't tackle politics 100% the way they do. But it seems to panic YOU. Because YOU'RE the single loudest one running across sites screaming CONCERN TROLL.... and now, POSTING about them. And then posting AGAIN about them. I'm not panicked, actually. And have been in far worse shit than this campaign. The Obama campaign looks to me to have an excellent chance.

Now. One last personal thing Bob Bob. You have a nasty tendency that the more you argue, the nastier your insinuations. I watched it before, and didn't like it. You start with "concern troll" and "jollies" but then you slip in a "sacrificing integrity," and then a "dishonest," and then you creep up on "UNMASKING." You're a censoring type Bob Bob. And a witchhunting type.

You may want to go read the bigger name posters here, for a clue. Because no matter how much they argue, or even get nasty with each other, they DON'T stoop to that.

And yes, it was your last sentence that pretty much does it for me. Where you say, "The idea that they're having a measurable negative impact on the Obama campaign is just wishful thinking on their part. And YOURS TOO, apparently." Buddy, when you include ME as wishing I was having a negative impact on Obama, well... you're low.

And anyone else who reads your stuff, and can't see that, is entering troubled waters. Readers here don't take kindly to this escalating "unmasking" shit Bob Bob. Think about it, and walk it back a bit.

And yes, it was your last sentence that pretty much does it for me. Where you say, "The idea that they're having a measurable negative impact on the Obama campaign is just wishful thinking on their part. And YOURS TOO, apparently." Buddy, when you include ME as wishing I was having a negative impact on Obama, well... you're low.

Well I apologize. You said "But apparently, I'm a moron for not seeing that Concern Trolls are perhaps the greatest threat to the Obama campaign,"

Apparently, why? Because you didn't get that claim about CT's out of what I wrote. I don't think they're a threat to the Obama campaign at all. Considering that the cafe is a low-volume site, it's pretty much inconsequential as far as the election goes.

So where did it come from?

In any case, I wrote: "The idea that they're having a measurable negative impact on the Obama campaign is just wishful thinking on their part. And yours too, apparently."

"They" here means the CT's, and I don't think you're a CT at all. A CT groupie maybe, but not a CT. So an assertion about the wishful thinking of the CT's isn't an assertion about YOU.

Nor is pointing out that you were the one who tossed in the idea of CT's being a threat to the Obama campaign. It didn't come out of what I wrote, so I assumed it came out of your own head. But if you were saying that you were apparently a moron for not thinking something that I never said, and that you never thought, and that as far as I know nobody on this site has ever said, then well, I don't know where you were coming from on that. But I apologize for misunderstanding your meaning, whatever it was.

In the annals of apologies, Bob Bob, that last paragraph was so professionally written, that all
I can say is... I accept. I know some politicians that could use you. ;-)

Anyway dude. All I was saying is, you must think CT's are a threat, because... you're POSTING on them. And my advice was, if they're obvious, let 'em go. The site's had a batch of new real trolls pour through, and - though it goes against my nature - I take the advice of older hands (that'd be Genghis) and let 'em pass. As for the long-time posters that may sound like they're just CT'ing, well... give 'em a miss if they're not your cup of tea that day. And if they get a good engagement going, where something productive is coming out of it, dive in.

Now, as for that "groupie" shot, lemme just say one thing (other than fark you!) It's VERY hard in the posts that are enormously pro-Obama, and have dozens or hundreds of people piling in with support, to get at a lot of the stuff I'm interested in. I GET why people wanna swap stories, encourage each other, lament the meanness of the GOP, all that. I just don't tend to like writing about it, that's all.

For me, I need & prefer the posts that bust some room out on the edge of things, because then I can often play off of the different views being expressed. But there's lots of ROOM to argue out there, without insulting people who come here for other things. Jesus Bob, people here post about having family in Iraq. Do you think I'm gonna argue about Obama's positioning on that issue, in those posts? I've got family in Afghanistan. I get it. Or people slogging their guts out, door to door, in Georgia or somewhere. I'm not gonna go into my views on how we should change our approach on XYZ in those posts. They got ENOUGH shit to deal with. I've been there, lived that, 25 years now. Other people write nice, comprehensive pieces that are meant to keep the troops on message, and calm & positive. They get loads of Rec's, and that's great. They're NEEDED. But that does leave very few places that open up some room, where questions can be asked, and different ideas & possibilities brainstormed. Yeah, they can be wild and fight-filled and nasty in the arguments, but.... everybody knows that who goes in there. It's like in any town you live in, you know what you can get in different bars.

Drinks all round!

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Trolls? You think there's a troll problem here? Pshaw. You should have been here during primary season, when every other thread was a troll battle. We used to have troll contests:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/dembillc-wins-the-troll-youd-m.php

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/first-annual-tpmcafe-trollatho.php

And I don't ignore them. I toy with them for collective amusement. Or I used to. The trolls these days don't have the same energy. They've become rather dull.

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I'm concerned about your concern about the concern trolls' concern about Obama

See? That said what I was saying.

Unless... it was ACTUALLY sayin' the opposite.

Dude's got a collar for every shirt. Not to be trusted. UNMASK him Bob Bob! One thing we can firmly agree upon.

I've tried, but every time I start to denounce one of the shirts he changes to a different one.

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You're misreading him, Genghis, as was quinn. He's not concerned about the concern trolls. If he's concerned about anything, he's concerned about those who are concerned about concern trolls, and that concerns me.

Quinn, you keep mentioning "other thinking" and "other theses" and things like that, and you seem to think I'm trying to stifle them because they're "other."

But look at the things I've objected to. I objected to the attacks on Palin over her pregnancy, especially the ones that included attacks on Palin's daughter. The conspiracy theories were transparently bogus. It was a pathetic and sleazy thing, and I said so in various threads.

Another recent example would be claims that McCain is ahead in the electoral college. Here we have two options. Either the person pushing this "other thesis" is unaware of what "margin of error" means and unclear on how to read poll results. Or they've been around the political world long enough to know what "margin of error" means and to know what "statistical tie" means. And in the latter case, they know that it's bogus to say that McCain has taken the lead if the argument for that claim has to treat statistical ties as if the differences were statistically significant. They know that, but they push it anyway.

It bugs me to see doom and gloom being pushed based on bogus arguments, by people who almost certainly know enough about how polls work, etc., to know that they're pushing bogus arguments (and who have an anti-Obama axe to grind). And it's not the same thing as arguing for an alternate point of view.

The bogosity is what these have in common.

I read a number of sites, some of them very conservative sites, to seek out other points of view. I read something by the "cruncy con" guy the other day, very pro-Palin. But he explains himself well, and his reasoning isn't one-dimensional or designed to be provocative in any but the best sense of the word. Taking several of the articles together I thought it was a well-balanced portrayal of why Palin has the appeal she has, and also what some of the weaknesses are that undermine that appeal.

Anyway, if you see me deriding a post that you think is not bogus but reasonable in what it's trying to say, point it out. I don't mean to do that.

Cheers Bob Bob. Polling analyses in general, I think most of us are better off going to the 538's and such. And right now, about all I think anyone can fairly say about polls is... they're close. Which, in real-world terms, as we all know, means events of the coming weeks could swing them one way or another.

I'd say right now I hope Obama is buried with some smart financial and economic advisors, because with Merrill Lynch and Lehman both going down tonight, and it looks like AIG - we're now well into the greatest financial smash-up since 1929. And politically, above all, we MUST make sure we propose something better than McCain.

And my advice was, if they're obvious, let 'em go.

I do mostly try to let the most obvious ones go. The Palin pregnancy attacks should have been obviously bogus, but had a surprising (and disappointing) amount of traction. I just found that line of attack very offensive.

As for the CT's, I wonder if there are threads where what I see is someone with an axe to grind using rhetoric (and thoroughly bogus arguments) as a a weapon, in a way that's really anything but admirable. And what you see in the same thread is just an honest attempt to provoke discussion about alternate viewpoints. There's a gray area I'm sure, but the distinction between the two is sometimes clear, isn't it?

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I wonder if there are threads where what I see is someone with an axe to grind using rhetoric (and thoroughly bogus arguments) as a a weapon, in a way that's really anything but admirable. And what you see in the same thread is just an honest attempt to provoke discussion about alternate viewpoints.
Bingo.
He ended up with an unvetted, incompetent, dishonest, vindictive running mate, and with no choice but to join with her in trying to sell a facade of lies for six more weeks.

another bingo.

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Another stupid post. Bob bob, perhaps each of us who chooses not to sit in the circle jerk should submit our written work to a committee headed by you. You then can judge what is concern trolling and what is not.

CNN this morning. Three McCain spots, no Obama. Concerned? Yeah, I'm concerned.

Great post. Time to show some discipline and STOP RESPONDING to trolls. If they don't get the attention they crave, they will simply disappear. Meanwhile, how about a little "concern troll" counter action? Find a born-again site and log on to tell them how concerned you are that McCain is just using poor Sarah and intends to dump her after he wins the election.

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