Join, or Die
Lalo35adm in response to Ripper's recent post:
You raise good points Ripper.
I'm one of the Hillary supporters, but I think that PUMAs are going too far.
But for the rest, I think what Hillary supporters are genuinely going throw a powerful combination of emotions.
It's easy to critize them and blame them, it's harder to understand them.
They still feel Hillary is a stronger candidate than Obama in the General.
They still don't buy into Obama's candidacy or message. I think they actually dislike Obama as strongly as some of his supporters dislike Hillary.
They are angry that sexism is still acceptable, it becomes a double-standard when racism no longer is tolerated, but sexism is.
They are angry for being taken for granted, as a voter statistic, they want to have their own voice.
They are angry at being demonized everywhere all the time.
If they vote for McCain in the end, it will have nothing to do with McCain.
I think Hillary awoke something in them and I think they themselves are still figuring out what it is.
Well its not hard to understand, Lalo. Honesty compels me to admit that I'd be going through almost exactly the same thing, and saying almost exactly the same things, if Hillary had won the nomination.
What has finally come home to me today is the complete failure of each side to process the implications of how much each their own catalog of arguments for their preferred candidate and their grievances against the other side sounds like the other side's catalog.
It means is that each side does have the tools it needs to understand the other side's position and viewpoint, because both our feelings about our preferred candidate and our grievances against the other so perfectly mirror each other. Substitute "he" for "she" in Lalo's post and "racism" for "sexism" and can any Obama supporter here question for a moment that that's what they'd be saying if Hillary had won?
So if the mirror image nature of our arguments and grievances means that all of us have the tools necessary to understand each other ready to hand, if we're not doing it, its because we're forcing ourselves not to.
There is an urgent need now for us start. Now.
And I think it starts with simply making ourselves stop assuming the worst about the man or woman at the top on the other side's ticket and, instead, giving them the same benefit of the doubt we've always given to our own favored candidate.
Giving your candidate the benefit of the doubt and assuming the worst of your opponent is nearly the defintion of being a supporter. In most campaigns, the benefit of the doubt accorded by supporters of a primary loser to their candidate normally gets transferred to the winner fairly rapidly. If it isn't happening this time, whether because of the length, or the historic nature of the candidacies, or over-identification, or just an ingrained preference for "big vision" leadership and distrust of technocrats (or vice versa), we need to make it happen by act of will.
In 1775, Ben Franklin illustrated the alternative that faces us in a cartoon that eventually became a popular flag motif.
It's a tad more complicated for my side, because I have to start giving the benefit of the doubt to both Hillary and Bill if its to do any good, but it has to be done and I've been trying to do it. And they've been earning it. When it comes to whether they're really going to do what's right for the party in the next four days, and the next two months, Bill and Hill both get, and have earned, the benefit of the doubt from me. I care not a whit about the efforts of certain unnamed asshats who are now working for news networks. I care only what Bill and Hill are saying and so far, they are saying the right things.
And my fellow Obama supporters, giving them the benefit of the doubt means not microanalyzing every word, nuance or inflection of theirs for evidence of insincerity or lack of enthusiasm. Christ, it was a brutal primary and they're only human. But they're Democrats and they're going to do the best they can to do right by the party. You can't ask for more.
I'm not going to ask those who're are committed Obama voters but still Clinton supporters in their hearts to stop supporting her. But I am asking that you stop assuming the worst and start giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Stop assuming that the FISA vote was about moving to the center for cynical political purposes and give him the benefit of the doubt when he says he did it because getting a law in place that declared that it was the sole source of presidential authority for wiretapping was more important telecom immunity. Stop assuming that he texted out Biden's name sometime around 3:00 am as a calculated insult to you and to Hillary and give his campaign the benefit of the doubt when it says its hand was forced when Bayh's people (who get no BOTD, btw) leaked it. Stop assuming that Obama never even considered Hillary for veep and passed her over because the problems of having an ex president embedded that deeply in your administration were just insurmountable.
Join, or die.
Ben put that comma is there for a reason. Join. Or not, but if not, here's your alternative. That's what he was saying.
Well here's your alternative.
McCain has made it clear that he sees every foreign policy crisis as an existential struggle between good and evil and believes military force is the answer to all of them. He has surrounded himself with the neocons who were too dumb and too crazy even for Cheney. He's ready to pull the nukes out of storage and put them back on alert in the existential struggle with Russia that he's determined to start. He isn't going to do what has to be done to stop global warming short of the abyss of global mass extension. He is going to hasten the transfer of wealth from the shrinking middle class to his and Cindy's BFF's down at the club--a path that ends in a degree of income stratification that no democracy can hope to survive. He is going to fight to his last breath to keep us from getting universal health care.
Join, or die.
Welcome to the Obama campaign HRC Outreach committee. Joined and rec'd (while reserving the occassional right to grumble).
August 25, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
The voice of reason has arrived. Thanks.
August 25, 2008 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
The cavalry is coming. And though they love Hillary, they will fight under Obama's command and, I believe, one day love him, too.
August 25, 2008 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's do it like the Scots. Wear your colours, your ribbons, but ride under one flag. 'Twas the only way to get those miserable clannish bastards to come together, but when it worked.... hoooooo baby!
August 25, 2008 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
The feelings of Hillary supporters are understandable. I've had candidates I supported lose primaries and lose elections. It's disappointing. It's depressing. It's entirely understandable to have those feelings.
BUT threatening to vote for McCain, which is to say, threatening to retaliate against Obama and Obama's supporters by putting the country through what McCain would put it through, is nothing but despicable.
"If they vote for McCain in the end, it will have nothing to do with McCain. "
IF they vote for McCain in the end, it will have everything to do with helping McCain start the wars he wants to start, with all of the pain and suffering in this country and in other countries that that will entail.
If they vote for McCain in the end, it will have everything to do with helping McCain ensure that the constitution will be interpreted Scalia-style well into the years that my young kids will grow up to face the consequences.
August 25, 2008 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
The PUMAs were outside the scope of my mission. They'd be fair game if not for the fact that they're just getting sad.
August 25, 2008 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think despite the multiple posts, explanations, rants and ravings, you still don't really understand it.
Try this way:
- Hillary, the strongest candidate, lost
- You don't find anything to like about Obama, no matter how much you try.
- Suddenly, they make Hillary responsible to force you to vote for Obama
- Obama campaign dismisses you as a statistic. "They will fall in line"
It's the combination of these things. And every time the media, fuckheads like Sirota and other Hillary haters push their garbage, it only brings all of this back.
BECAUSE THEY ACTIVELY STOKE THE BITTERNESS INSTEAD OF REACHING OUT, HILLARY HATERS ARE THE WORST FRIENDS BARACK OBAMA EVER HAD.
August 25, 2008 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I am saying I do get it. I would be saying, or at least feeling, each and every one of those things if Hillary had won. Each and every one of those things you see happening would be happening, albeit with a different collection of assholes, if Hillary had won. Indeed, even now, there are high-profile Independent Assholes for Hillary who are stoking the flames of Obama-hatred just as hard as any of the Nonaligned Sphincters for Obama. I know how I would feel about it. The only thing that would motivate me would be daily trips to the comments section of Michelle Malkin's online lunatic asylum.
But you know, you don't really have to like Obama to join, though I hope, eventually, you do. You just have to decide you dislike McCain more and, having made that decision, resolve to follow it through to its logical conclusion.
August 25, 2008 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
On a totally personal level and speaking only for myself - I don't like Obama. I don't think he's a good candidate. I don't think he has better policies than Hillary.
But I'm trying to hold my nose and join the team. For the good of the party, the people, the country and all the other crap Obama supporters give me. I'm trying to hold my nose and "fall in line", as I'm expected by Obama to do.
But every time some Obama supporter posts garbage on Hillary (which is usually pretty NONSTOP), I ask myself - why bother with the nose? They obviously don't give a shit about me. Why should I give a shit about them?
August 25, 2008 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to say I agree with you about alot of the Obama supporters ever since the announcement about the convention speakers came out, and I'M AN OBAMA SUPPORTER. Just remember this is not about our personalities or blog commenters or even so much about Clinton or Obama, per se. I almost never say things like this, but this is about taking our country back.
August 25, 2008 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hear you. But keep in mind while some of these people don't give a shit about Hillary and her supporters, most of them do; it's just like some of Hillary's supporters don't give a shit about Obama and his supporters, but most of them do.
I have to admit that I once thought of you as a troll (as you could probably tell by some of my comments), but when you get past the avatar, you are a good contrarian voice on TPM and I apologize.
I really think that a changing of the avatar may give you a better reaction from a lot of people and they might take you more seriously. It doesn't bug me anymore, but I'm just sayin that it might help.
August 25, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
As if you're not getting enough advice, already, here's another morsel:
Your anger is being cast pretty broadly. What if you got more precise about it?
Like Trailerville says upthread, some supporters are "haters" of the competition, but not ALL of them. I, for one, have never been one of the Hillary "haters," and think hateful comments that make assertions about Hillary Clinton's presumed character flaws are ridiculous and undignified.
There are many Obama supporters like me, who like Hillary Clinton just fine -- she just wasn't our first choice. When you read an irrational, hateful comment by a "hater," remember that we're out here, too.
We should be political allies, don't you think?
August 25, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Laura! Well said and cunt me as one of the same stripe as you. What say we have about a 70 day moratorium on the bickering, capice? Y'all can have at it on Nov. 5th. Until then is doesn't do a g*ddamned bit of good for the PARTY. Remember the Party? Jeebus, I get sick and f**king tired of coming to TPM everyday and reading about this crap...
August 26, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Laura! Well said and count me as one of the same stripe.
Let's say we have a 70 day moratorium on all the bickering until Nov. 5th, OK? Its not going to help the chances of the PARTY. Remember the PARTY?
I get so sick and f**king tired of coming to TPM everday and finding the same old crap. Jeebus...
August 26, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I heard another former Hillary apparatchik Terry MacAuliffe say they'll "fall in line" as Rachel Maddow of all people only wanted to talk about how Hillary supporters want to split the party. He ridiculed the supposed tiff between Bill and Barack and told how he spent the morning debunking it on Hannity's show.
So I switched over to NPR where the reporters would talk about or ask about nothing else. It got so bad Tim Kaine I think it was told one of them she was being a little ridiculous blowing this stuff out of proportion.
Is this all a media creation based on a few polls? My anecdotal phonebanking evidence says there's plenty of disgruntled Hillary supporters out there, even in Illinois. But Steve is right and I think most Democratic voters know it. We either join, or die.
August 25, 2008 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm actually surprised that Maddow has bought into this bullshit storyline. If anyone would, I figured she'd be the one to put everyone in check about this narrative being fueled by a media obsession.
August 26, 2008 5:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Steve. Thanks in part to voices like yours, I think we're going to get there. Good job.
August 25, 2008 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is really thoughtful and appreciated.
August 25, 2008 8:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen, Steve. THanks for the great post!
August 25, 2008 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great dialogue. I was going to write something similar myself. I do understand. It would have taken me some time to adjust if Hillary was the nominee and it would have been rough. But as I've said before I would vote for her in a heartbeat for the sake of my daughter,the future of this country because McCain will take this country backwards to the cold war, repeal choice by bringing us a more conservative supreme court, and 'oh yes there will be more wars'-he said. There no contest.
Great post! Thanks!
August 25, 2008 9:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think my knickers are starting to unknot....
It feeeels goooood.
=D
August 25, 2008 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
After 230 years of all male Presidents and Vice Presidents there was finally a woman who was not only qualified, but well positioned to win the presidency.
That didn't happen because of Barack Obama. Then, being the agent of change that he is, he proposes keeping the vice presidncy an all male bastion for the next eight years as well. Fifty one percent of the country is female, and he couldn't find one woman better qualified than Joe Biden.
I've reached the conclusion that I can't in good conscience vote for McCain, but I don't feel at all compelled to vote for Obama.
August 25, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
You mean the office that John Nance Garner said wasn't worth a bucket of warm shit?
August 25, 2008 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, I think he said "not worth a bucket bucket of warm piss." Edited to "spit" for polite company.
August 26, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is what I mean. Noone said Hillary wasn't qualified, noone says her campaign wasn't historic, noone says she didn't deserve all the 18 million votes she recieved. HOWEVER, to insinuate Barack simply didn't chose a woman because of some sort of hidden agenda against women is GROSSELY offensive and GROSSELY incorrect. It's not about men and women when it came to Obama's choice. It was about governing, PERIOD.
August 26, 2008 12:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Totally off-topic, but on MSNBC Rachel Maddow is absolutely DESTROYING Pat Buchanan on the panel.
To bring it back, that, in addition to this post by Steve, makes me happy.
August 25, 2008 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
And OMG, do some self-absorbed cable asshats love them the sounds of their own voices, or what? I was hoping to watch the convention tonight, but evidently the Democratic party spent nintey gazillion dollars renting this place to give them a platform for their asshattery. My bad.
August 25, 2008 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you see the weird Olbermann / Scarborough moment early on? Joe was doing the whole "Obama's lead has collapsed" bit for about 5 minutes when Keith blurted out "get a shovel." I don't think he thought his mic was on. It was awkward and hilarious and then there was some weird back and forth for a few minutes.
August 25, 2008 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, the information age is awesome. It's already on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiiarNdxouc
August 25, 2008 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Watch it on C-Span. Absolutely no commentary. Not a peep. It was a revelation.
August 26, 2008 12:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't watch conventions to see Chris Mathews or any other yammering media star. I can see that anytime. I heard Tom Harkin introducing Jim Leech the former Republican IA congressman in the car on the way home. Leech back in the early 70s was on the staff negotiating a nuclear disarmament treaty with the Soviets. When Nixon fired his attorney general and the special prosecutor, "the Saturday Night Massacre" Leech resigned in protest.
This is a Republican worth listening to. I got inside, turned on MSNBC and Tweety was yakking away, they showed Leech long enough for him to say "that's Jim Leech speaking now let's go back to our panel". Pardon me, but f*ck that. I switched to PBS where I caught the last part of Leech's speech, full of good stuff about defending the dollar and fiscal responsibility have abandoned. Leech isn't the flashiest speaker but what he had to say is far and away more important than anything Tweety says, even on his best day.
Change the channel folks, ignore the bread and circuses and pay attention to the speeches. You juts might hear something you can use on a doorstep or the phone.
August 25, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I could simply not possibly agree more with you. If democracy were to eventually fail, it would have more to do with the open, gushing idiocies of ALL these TV commentators, than it will with Bush or Scalia. If you value your time on this earth, don't waste a minute of it on ANY of these circus acts on ANY side. I really think you should develop a full post on this subject.
August 26, 2008 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
NCSteve, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's all I have to say.
August 25, 2008 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
So Steve. Have you called off the Criticism Stasi? Are "hand-wringers" now free of your opprobrium and scorn? Is it all kumbaya now? Just trying to keep up. ;^}
August 25, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deafeatism, panic and general chicken-shitism will always be subject to my opprobrium. But if I'm running any kind of secret police--as opposed, say, to just being one guy with a keyboard and an overabundance of opinions--they sure as hell don't seem to be doing a very good job of vaporizing the thought criminals.
August 26, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary supporters always seemed to want to "compete" with Obama supporters. Oh our supporters are as passionate about our candidate as you guys. Damnitall we are all democrats. Why can't people get it. We are freaking democrats man. When the time comes get to the polls and get to voting. It's so selfish from both camps sometimes. The dem primary is OVER. Why are people so selfish? Why don't most people realize this election could be the turning point in our history. My goodness it's disheartening that people can be that selfish. I think better of my country than that. I really do.
August 25, 2008 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good post, NC Steve. Thanks.
August 25, 2008 11:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Steve, you do us all a great service with your generally wonderful posts. And I'm sure they take some time and effort. So thanks.
And as for the argument presented here, I just want to point out that I was FURIOUS during the primary about some of Hillary's tactics, particularly the "crossing the threshold" comment.
But I am also on record (at a time when the outcome was anything but clear) that I would absolutely vote for Hillary - and even advocate for her - if she won the nomination.
Seriously, folks! This is Bush/McCain we're talking about! If you think some random Obama supporters on the Internet are being mean, just try these wingnuts. Wake up! They will use you and laugh about it.
Sure, maybe some Obama supporters will laugh too, but at least the leadership will not, and the policy initiatives that you care about will be, for the most part, safe.
August 26, 2008 7:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I suppose one could take these assumptions at face value, but the comment you cite is just so full of the very hatred it claims to be against. It casts aspersions far and wide, neither seeking nor asking for reconciliation.
I started giving Hillary (and Bill) a break months ago, as did most Obama supporters around here, but all we hear are the Chorus of Wounded Victims on a constant basis. All those things Lalo wrote about, I began to dispense with before the primaries were over. I quit attacking Hillary and looked to mend fences.
For all the good it did.
Many, like Loki and Lalo, make disparaging remarks about Obama and his supporters constantly. Refuse to see anything good in him or in what his vision for the country entails and won't back away from their rhetorical suicide pact long enough to win an election. No amount of good-will seems to suffice to soothe their wounds.
Then you have the other side of the democratic fence-sitters - The Constitutional Lawyer Brigade, with very few real attorneys among them but loud and long opinions about how Barack is wrecking the country and raping the Constitution as a junior Senator from Illinois and the first black presidential candidate. Sounds like a powerful combination to me. No wonder Washington is bending over and giving Barack his way.
I appreciate the sentiment of the post and am more than willing to let shit go if it wasn't for the lies and innuendo that is posted about Barack. We can't just let that shit go or we lose the election.
Remember, Ben Franklin and his brothers weren't the types to just say Join, or Die. They would go ahead and put you on the other side once it was clear you wouldn't join ours. The time is quickly approaching that such a line is crossed and we must act accordingly. If we fail to act against the "enemies" within our midst, we cannot hope to win this war.
Recommended for the potential, though this is perhaps the one place I get pessimistic. Ironic. I'll think on that one. Recommended again for prompting a thought process.
August 26, 2008 8:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mend fences? You?! Holy crap, my head is spinning!
Aaaaaggghhhh!!!
Heh-heh-heh!
August 26, 2008 8:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know Jason... I just re-read your comment a couple times. And I do see that you actually fully believe all of your bullshit. Remarkable.
You would do well to seriously try getting over yourself.
August 26, 2008 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Should I post links to MANY mea culpas I have done or the MANY apologies I have offered for any disparaging remarks I may have made about Hillary or her supporters in the context of their effort to win the primary?
I am NOT going to apologize for calling bullshit when necessary or for debunking your lies and innuendos and half truths and straight-up crazy ass shit that you and other Hillary fans decide to post about my candidate.
But, by all means, continue to keep the fires of righteous indignation burning. You prove my points every time you post a comment and America dies a little inside.
August 26, 2008 9:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
One more time:
Get. Over. Yourself.
August 26, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, that is exactly the advice I would give you and Hillary supporters like you. The victim thing is getting tiresome. This isn't about you or Hillary or Bill. It never was.
Hell, it really isn't even about Obama or me or anyone else on TPM. Had Hillary won and you were a disgruntled Obama supporter, I would take the same tone.
We cannot let the neoconservatives win another presidential election. We simply can't take one more year of inaction on our various and sundry problems.
August 26, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
For Loki & Jason:
August 26, 2008 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Damn it- here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLsyNBnE5M
August 26, 2008 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Cute! Bunnies!
Actually I like Jason quite a lot. His heart is in the right place. He just take himself too seriously. And he's fighting the wrong battle.
August 26, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Also... he thinks I'm a Clinton supporter! (Shhh, don't say anything!) ;^}
August 26, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Apologist, supporter. Whatever. I take this race seriously. Everything else gets the grain of salt it deserves.
August 26, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Both of you screw up regularly by using careless, sweeping characterizations. And both of you are very sharp and insightful, but you allow careless use of language to needlessly detract from your messages.
There. Now you two kids behave! Don't make me turn this thread around and take you back home!
August 26, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
He started it. :OP
August 26, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
NCSteve - thanks for articulating this so well.
I am no Clinton fan - but if Bill were not around Hillary would have been a great pick.
McSame is frightening and this nation is lost if we don't defeat him.
August 26, 2008 9:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for having the hangie downies to say that!
August 26, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've never attacked Clinton, but I admit to doing a fair amount of defending Obama. I'll stick with my policy of not attacking. Plenty of time for that if we win.
Thanks for the comment.
August 26, 2008 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have had my share of harsh words for both Clintons, but I long ago gave up "attacking" either of them - meaning I don't go out of my way to highlight the things that bug me about them.
Like Tom, I am happy to stick to defending my candidate throughout the rest of the general, so I will be even more diligent in leaving the attacks for John McCain and the neoconservative cult that is destroying this country.
Good reminder. Thanks.
August 26, 2008 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Funny... going back to June 30 I was unable to find a single blog-post of yours that does that. Attacks on Clintons, their supporters, Democrats, "the left", people who dare to say something even remotely critical of Obama, yes... but McCain? Neocons? Couldn't find it.
Boy, I'm sure you've got a good one in ya though, right? Right?
August 26, 2008 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I made my apologies and was done with it. My posts are typically reserved for the broader divisions among us. As I said to your comment above, this isn't about you or Clinton or the far left or whatever label you care to wave around.
In case you hadn't noticed, I am a republican, so despite my progressive policy positions on most things, my criticism for the "left's" piss-poor methodology and lack of performance will often be pointed and sometimes hard to take but always strives to be constructive in nature. As good criticism should be.
I rarely get personal until your potty mouth gets the best of you and everything I am writing somehow becomes about you specifically. That's when the the ad hominem attacks start and the conversation goes downhill.
Play innocent all you like, but any TPM reader with half a brain and decent comprehension skills is well aware of your combative nature and lack of civility.
August 26, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Again... Wow! It once again appears you did not even read my comment.
But OK...
Waving around labels? Me? I believe "far left" is your label.
Republican? I could have sworn I just read you saying you were an Independent.
And "potty mouth?" Guilty. Sue me.
Now as for those eloquent, Jason-esque attacks on McCain and Neocons. They're coming right up, right? ...Right?
August 26, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
August 26, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
PS: My entire political philosophy is an refutation of neoconservative ideology and everything McCain stands for. There is no need for me to do anything than comment as I see fit. Bashing all "conservatives" as being neoconservative is not how I choose to go about it.
I have no more patience for the ideology of the "Raging Left" and have no desire to participate in their witch hunts. Your wing of the TPM community is plenty happy to fly off ina twitter every time Barack does something you don't agree with.
It is why I am not a democrat. All tactics and no strategy. All bluster and no common sense.
I post under my own name, so I must be civil. You have no such handicap, so you flame away and come across as a sophomoric twit most of the time. If that was the goal, you succeeded admirably.
Not sure what else there is to say, except keep your powder dry.
August 26, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Still waiting.
August 26, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are off your rocker today. I am still waiting for your point, whatever it happens to be.
August 26, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
The sad thing is that this is nothing new, except for the heterosexual woman aspect.
Minorities and the LGBT communitties have been hearing the "get on board" thing for years. Gays got blamed for Kerry's loss in 2004, and minorities (racial) have been taken for granted for much longer. Many of those who told us to get on board over the last few decades have been these women.
I guess I just have to question what makes them so much more important that their desires and needs outweigh the desires and needs of those they "asked" to go along to get along.
If you ask me, it's pretty presumptuous to think that "they" need to be acknowledged and heard while neglecting for years to acknowledge or hear other groups.
Seems like all these folks can think about is "ME. ME. ME." instead of what is needed for the country. I've given up on this party supporting my rights to equality under the law, but I still vote democrat because the other option is even more repugnant. maybe these supporters ought to look to their past and realize that they are finally reaping what they have sown over the years.
August 26, 2008 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
excellent point, Burnsey. This does appear to be the first time that the supporters of one candidate have taken a position of cutting off their nose to spite their face, and I am hoping that Clinton will do her level best to urge unity. I would have hoped for a much higher profile in the weeks leading up to the convention, but Clinton was pretty out of sight, and the pundits were consumed with the veepstakes and Bill Clinton's grumbling. If these folks are willing to vote for the Republicans due to hurt feelings, then they never WERE Democrats, because there is no more critical juncture in recent history than this presidential election, and no greater opportunity. What bewilders me is the notion that somehow Clinton was a "last best hope" for a female presidential candidate, instead of the first good chance.
August 26, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Forget the labels Democrat/Republicans...
They were never thinking people. Thinking people cannot look at Obama and McCain and come out voting for McCain. Any decision to vote for McCain has to be based on something other than thought...
August 26, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now you're getting it. No more labels or at least a drastic redefinition of all existing ones.
August 26, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good work Steve,thank you.
August 26, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
You put up great posts, Steve.
August 26, 2008 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
How about this as a contrarian uniter. I think both Obama and Clinton come way short of what we should want in a candidate. Neither one of them is willing to so much as sniff single payer healthcare, for instance. And they both pander where they have to and cover their own asses. No one should fall in love with any candidate. It's about the agenda. It's about moving the country in the right direction. And both Barack and Hillary had nearly the same policy agenda. Get over the high school popularity contest and face some facts. McCain absolutely loves war, he loves economic stratification, and he would be a total and absolute disaster in very real terms.
We had two historic candidates and everyone got a little too caught up in the drama. Everyone went overboard. So there are some lingering emotions. Fine. Just realize those emotions for what they are in practice- several million tiny little loopholes that the republicans are going to try and jam McWar through. Don't let it happen.
August 26, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
It seems to me clear from comments made by the likes of Lalo35adm that the only interest such people ever had was to stoke and then nurse their resentments. The rage that so distinguishes the conservative movement at least has political and ideological elements to it, making it somewhat understandable, regardless of how intense we might disagree with them. But there doesn't seem to be anything to Hillary rage but the rage itself. Certainly, there's no interest whatever in the party and it's prospects in the Fall, and saying they'll hold their nose and vote for Obama does not obviate that fact one wit.
August 26, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
But it would helpful to the greater cause if we could stop resenting the resentment. Or failing that, at least act like we have. Biting our tongues and letting them have the last word when all they're doing is complaining or emoting costs us nothing. We are now officially past the point where who's right or who's wrong or who gets the last word, or even what's fair, is even relevant to the matter at hand, which is getting a Democrat elected.
August 26, 2008 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this is a classic case of the media driving the narrative, rather than just reporting on it.
Are there Hillary supporters who are bummed their candidate lost? For sure.
But that is the case in every presidential election, save those odd ones in which a sitting president runs unopposed. There are always winners and losers in the primary process.
But the notion that this is a deep and abiding problem for the Democrats.... I'm not yet convinced. It seems more like an easy theme for the pundits to wax eloquent on, than anything else.
August 26, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post! For those like Lalo finding this so difficult, I hope you find Bill and Hillary's speeches cathartic. I fully expect them to go after McCain big time. If that doesn't get you on board just tune into Fox News and listen to every McCain speech from here on out, that should do it.
August 26, 2008 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
"What bewilders me is the notion that somehow Clinton was a "last best hope" for a female presidential candidate, instead of the first good chance."
I wish more people would get this point!
August 26, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
If roles were reversed, I would still be over it. Maybe I wouldnt pay as much attention to the campaigns(I know I would), but I wouldnt "hate" on anyone.
After you get passed the emotions, the raw energy, the pure disbelief of a(your) candidate losing, to still be "angry" to the point of threatening the fate of the country, even if just through the internet. After all of that, I believe you get to a point where individuals are simply being SELFISH.
Which is a gross emotion. It leads to negative envy. And from their Civil Wars are usually started.
Take a page from countries like Iraq and its heavily divided communities and regions.
We either stand together as one or fall together as many.
My hope is that the MSM, and certain bloggers are grossly over exaggerating the # of individuals who are not able to move forward. I hope.
August 26, 2008 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Political primaries are hard fought races. The Clinton Campaign fought as hard as any candidate could. Some say fairly, some say unfairly. The media is never fair. Look back to Gore and Kerry as two examples. Every candidate has the enemy of the opponent and sometimes the media is another opponent. Some people feel the media was hard on Hillary, some think not hard enough regarding some of the things her campaign did.
That said, when the nominee is chosen, all the challengers are expected to rally behind the nominee with all they have to offer. They are not to make demands or engage in distracting high drama. They are expected to do everything possible to deliver their supporters to the winner to ensure party victory.
Can anyone say this has happened with the Clintons? Every speech, every appearance, there is always a "BUT" or a less than enthusiastic aside to downright withholding of complete support.
Perhaps they know that this was Hillary's only chance at the Presidency and it is lost and they want to get even. If they don't feel that way, they have created that situation by their actions.
August 26, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
In all fairness I think Hillary herself has been pretty gracious in defeat. And she can't be held responsible for a bunch of morons rallying under the banner of "Party Unity My Ass."
August 26, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
We're still talking about this? It's pointless to try to reason with someone that is so bent out of shape they would risk having a supreme court full of Scallias and a few more wars and occupations. It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face. There's nothing you can do about it.
If John McCain wins this election it's time to pack up and move to another country. Not because of bruised feelings or not wanting to live with divisive GOP pricks. The country will just be done. Over. Eventually even republican assholes will have to jump ship. What's the point of being a rich prick if there is no middle class to support you? At some point it just makes sense to fly to holland, munch on some pannenkoeken, and start learning Mandarin. Maybe Vancouver or Montreal if you don't want to go too far from home. Mexico is nice.
August 26, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Montreal is lovely, but Canada has its own virulent strain of neocons itching to dismantle the welfare state and get jiggy on Albertan oil surpluses.
August 26, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
There won't be anywhere to move to...McCain is gonna get our butts blown up in a nuclear war.
August 26, 2008 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
and they want to get even...
I doubt it. I think they're getting what they really want. To wallow in their own resentment. It's one of the enduring insights that Nietzsche gave us.
August 26, 2008 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am for America, and I believe that if I am to listen to the Republican John McCain then we will get more of the same in this election, with the exception that he may believe that we have to do better in the Environmental aspect of things. What worries me is that most of the players on his team are big corporate lobbyist, in fact I thin these are the guys that we should be talking about everyday on these blogs. They are a more accurate picture of his campaign and what his rhetoric has been since he found himself almost out of the race around Christmas.
Do I have reservations about Obama, sure he is not a perfect candidate (as he has said) but America can not continue to go down the same road it has been trodding since the 70's. It is time for America to look at all of its leaders, which includes Hillary, Bill, Biden, Artur Davis, Dodd, Richardson and our own indivisual community leaders composed of Teachers, Fireman, Policemen, City Council etc. We all need to step up, tune out and Take America Back!
August 26, 2008 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink