go to hell with your snark....you people are not interested in unity unless it has clinton somewhere on the ticket...dems are a bunch of losers and as soon as this election is over, i am divorcing this stupid party....the ideals are great, but we lose b/c we are losers...why else would PUMA and embittered clintons and clinton supporters still exist? they exist b/c we love losing...republicans are not in love with mccain, but they have enough sense not to undermine him in favor of huckabee, or romney or guiliani etc.....what's done is done.

obama loses, clintons will get blamed period...she runs in 2012 and she will get exactly what obama supporters got in 2008-NADA....the knife cuts both ways...do what is right today and your political ass will be saved later...if she wasn't so arrogant and she had taken the time to formulate a succint path to winning the primaries, instead of acting entitled and dismissing the jr senator, she would have been the presumptive nominee and all of Obama's supporters would have fallen in line...she failed even though she had all the advantages...get over it already! the clintons are not God...the times have changed...we thank B. Clinton for his good work, but unfortunately all of it has been overshadowed by his colorful past and his philandering ways....spare us all the rhetoric....there is no guarantee that bill c would have been able to do what he did back in had hrc been president...

A footnote to a history lesson about the NMC party, 50 years hence:

"Ironically, it was Sen. Hillary Clinton's historic run for the Democratic nominee for the Presidency that marked the beginning of the end of the Democratic party. Sen. Clinton, who went on to lose her bid for re-election to the Senate, never held public office again. The Democratic party was eventually replaced by the NMC party. 'NMC', which now stands for 'New Middle Class,' originally stood for 'No More Clintons.'"

What is it with all of the Clinton hatred in this thread? Or, more to the point, the hatred towards the people who voted for Clinton? You know, on a straight count of votes, Obama and Clinton are basically equally popular with the party, based on what we know from the primaries. No doubt that Obama won, by the way, but by a rounding error.

And yet Obama picks Biden who opposed him in the primaries and got trounced and that's okay? Especially given that Obama used Hillary's Iraq vote against her during the primary even though Biden voted for the war too?

At this point, other than being a Democrat, what is Obama bringing to the table? We get faith based initiatives, the FISA bill, bigoted anti-gay singers at campaign events and... Joe Biden?

Here you are, arguing that Democrats who critize Obama are the problem. Show me one thing that Obama has changed about himself in order to win the votes of Democrats who weren't for him from the start. The guy didn't win the nomination with any sort of mandate -- the votes were neck and neck -- so he still has a lot of work to do within our own party and I don't see any evidence that he's done it, or that he's even tried.

"Bill Clinton's got supporters? What the hell for?"

To keep his testicular fortitude from chafing.

Come on. There are like 30 PUMAs. You buying into the republican effort to play up the Obama dissing of Sen. Clinton at not being selected as his running mate.

I am no fan of either Clinton, for the record.

Clinton has announced she will release her delegates on Wed. and has urged her supporters to support Obama.

I think you would be more accurate to say that the era of DLC dominance of the democratic party is over.

Did the Republicans send Begala and Carville out to talk up the "Obama dissed Hillary" message?

Quote: "Is it just me, or could this person being doing the work of Senator McCain? I mean this is the first full day of the convention. Why now?"

Because it was just last night that Paul Begala and James Carville were on CNN flogging their "Obama dissed Hillary" story. And just this morning that politico reported Bill Clinton's unhappiness with the topic of his speech.

If it'll make you feel any better, I've decided to the extent possible to ignore what the Hillary supporters are putting out there. I've probably done all the pushback I can from my keyboard. But I did want Hillary supporters to know that pushback is out there. Frankly, I think some of them still -- at this late date -- are looking for what they are willing -- make that EAGER -- to interpret as indications that the tide is turning on Obama.

You can not count Hillary out for the future.

Politics has a way of surprising us all. If Obama does not win, then it will be Hillary versus Biden in 2012.

Nixon got elected as a two term President, after he had actually counted himself out. Recall his famous remark about not having him to kick around anymore.

No More Drama...they remind me of my alcoholic parents.

All right little misters and misses, I'll turn this car around and take us right back home!

Its really time for people on both sides of this ridiculous squabbling to stop attributing statement by every supporter--even high level surrogates, to Bill or Hillary or Barack. The idea that Bill or Hillary or Barack have that degree of control over what their supporters (present and former, real and imagined) do and say that's being imputed to them here today is absolutely ridiculous.

In fact, just this moment, what with it being THE FIRST DAY OF THE DAMN CONVENTION and all, its really time for there to stop being two sides, dontcha maybe think? If you think so, that only happens when both sides stop arguing about who started the fight, who fought dirtier, and yada yada yada ad infinitum.

Everyone on both sides of this is starting to remind me of divorcees who are so afraid of feeling nothing that they can't let go of the hate. There is no winning that fight. All they succeed in doing is creating kids who hate both of them when they take enough time away cutting themselves to think about it. And the way every new grievance opens up the floor for an extremely productive rehashing of every ancient grievance, every perceived inadequacy, every slight, every failing, and every debt dating back to the first kiss is an especially lovely point of comparison.

Fight with each other if you must, but keep it personal and keep it current because it is high time for everyone on both sides of this increasingly irrelevant debate to stop arguing that Obama and the two Clintons are responsible for the acts, words and presumed insults of every subordinate, present and pass surrogate, delegate, blogger, blog commenter, or random asshole in the street. They aren't. They don't have that level of control over them. How do I know that? BECAUSE THESE ARE DEMOCRATS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, HERE, which, ipso facto means they're going to slip their leash and run their mouths when they should just be sitting quietly at the bar nursing a cool foamy glass of STFU.

As I observed once before, the MSM only has four stories in the summer. One of them is "oh, those silly, squabbling Democrats, observe and chortle at the disarray." They're chasing that one full bore today, like a great white on the tail of a surfer. Surely, this is one time I can suggest that we stop throwing anymore goddamn chum in the water without being accused of being a fascist.

The lesson that the Clinton's learned from the vast right wing is how to do the street fight thing effectively. Once you've beat them to a pulp, stomped them in the ground and made them cry, then you kick them until you hurt. Never let up! What they didn't learn is you don't bring that shit back home and use it on your own family members.

Has it occured to anyone that most of these so-called "PUMAs" voted for George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004? And probably voted for Dole, HW Bush, and Reagan. They were basically attracted to the novelty of the idea of voting for someone with similar genitalia. They aren't Democrats, certainly not loyal Democrats - they are women for whom the promise of a few dollars in tax cuts were sufficient reasons to abandon the party most dedicating to advancing their cause.

And some of them are probably just meatspace Republican trolls.

I've done my fair share of merciless beat-downs on the PUMAs who haunt this site, and while it feels good, it's basically useless. Because these people aren't really Democrats, and it's pointless. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It just wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

The PUMAs prove one thing: you don't have to be a Republican to act against your self-interest. Democrats, too, can be dumb as dirt.

Pathetic.

Quite a troll fest here.

Hillary's got a great chance here to do something good. That means not making her speech about her disruptive "supporters" or the important schismist "voice" that they supposedly represent, or the "glass ceiling" that didn't hold back the Speaker of the House (with the directly implied false accusation that that holds).

It needs to be a speech about winning together to put the disgraceful Bush legacy in a coffin. And it needs to be heartfelt and passionate, not wistful or grudging. And not in between, either, as we've seen so many times. She's had a lot of chances to do this and has just let them slip. This is one more great opportunity for her, the most important. To squander, or to make a difference. All eyes are upon her.

The reason she would never win in 2012 is because WE as Obama supporters would not forget. We aren't that petty but there would be many that would vote for everyone that wasn't Hillary. I would have voted for her if she had gotten the SD's to s witch their vote in her favor. I just detest McCain that much, HOWEVER if her supporters aid in a loss come this election, shit will hit the fan.