A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the White House
First we divided into camps, Hillary vs. Obama.
Then Hillary gave a conciliatory speech.
Then we divided into camps, Obama supporters who want reconciliation and Obama supporters who attack Obama supporters who want reconciliation.
If this keeps up, Hillary's camp is outta here.
Then Hillary gave a conciliatory speech.
Then we divided into camps, Obama supporters who want reconciliation and Obama supporters who attack Obama supporters who want reconciliation.
If this keeps up, Hillary's camp is outta here.
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Have you contributed to Hillary's campaign debt at this time?
You should do so. It might teach you a little humility instead of using blackmail gestures for your goal.
Get her debt resolved, then you have place to criticize. This is ample opportunity for she and her supporters to show political acumen for the long primary education.
Do that.
Why don't you write a blog post highlighting the benefits of retiring her campaign debt? So we can understand why.
June 8, 2008 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very puzzling.
Is it blackmail to suggest that post-concession attacks on the defeated candidate and those who want conciliation with the defeated candidate may cost us the White House?
What does my blackmail threaten? What does it demand? From whom?
Please clarify the reason you're demanding money from me for my freedom to criticize. Are you assuming I'm an Obama supporter, and claiming I'm obligated to help retire Hillary's debt because Obama defeated her? Or are you assuming I'm a Hillary supporter, and claiming I'm obligated to help retire her debt because I supported her? Why is helping retire the debts of a wealthy woman the price of my freedom to suggest Democrat-on-Democrat attacks may cost Democrats the presidency?
Why is my concern about the effects of attacks on Hillary a crime in your universe? Do the attacks promote some higher moral good that outweighs the animosity they inspire?
June 8, 2008 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am all about reconciliation. What I'm not about is people, perfectly well intentioned, jumping into rational discussion threads and using intense peer pressure to shut those discussions down. If you have an opinion, great. If your opinion is "don't state any opinion that might offend Hillary supporters, no matter how honest" that's complete BS.
If reconciliation can't happen with honesty, it isn't really reconciliation.
June 8, 2008 7:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
We can debate whether it's more important to have "real" reconciliation or to win the election.
Let me address the charge of using peer pressure. I don't think it's exerting peer pressure to take the view that words sometimes have a price. There can be honest disagreements about which words exact what price, and what price is too much to pay.
Take an analogy from the private realm. My limited but checkered experience in relationships leads me to believe that only one side has to be offended for the whole thing to collapse. The same experience leaves me in no doubt that honesty is at times destructive. For example, you can end up in divorce court for making the true point that your wife has spent more money on a home renovation than you had to spend, and that you face serious financial consequences. Your wife's reply may be in these exact words: "But it's our home!" Shortly thereafter, you face a choice between a) continuing an objective discussion of your family's financial distress and who is to blame, and b) deciding you love your wife and want to stay married even if her carelessness in not adding up the cost of change orders she signed, in her enthusiasm for creating the perfect home, happens to leave you in dire financial straits - something that was not her intention. She is at fault, but do you really want a divorce? You would in some sense be justified in saying, "We're getting a divorce. We'll sell the house to pay off our debts. It's all your fault. You'll never do this to me again." Then you'll both be living in reduced circumstances but, by God, you were right!
I'm assuming as we move back to politics that the goal is not to ensure that the division of the Democratic Party lasts through the November election - that we want reconciliation, not a divorce judge's certification that one party was very, very, very wrong.
It comes down to weighing the virtues of certain types of discussions per se, and the reality that your words actually affect the way other people feel and think and, ultimately, the way they act. Like you, I believe that objectivity in discussion has value. However, so does objectivity about the emotional, practical and very real consequences of saying certain things, however true, in certain situations.
Is it peer pressure to make such an analogy from personal experience to the political?
June 8, 2008 8:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, continuing the marriage analogy, are you saying that we should right now sacrifice being right in the interest of staying married?
That only works if the other party feels the same way and will not insist on an apology for past "wrongs" and perceived misdeeds.
I agree that an understanding of this sort on both sides could lead to reconciliation vice divorce court.
June 8, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, continuing the marriage analogy - all of this sacrificing only works if the sex is unbelieveably good....
Everybody who cares about their future will come to terms with reality. Everybody who holds a grudge does so at their own peril. It is up to everyone who understands reality to be very, very, clear.
June 9, 2008 5:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Q. "Is it peer pressure to make such analogy from personal experience to the political?"
A. Perhaps not peer pressure - but analogies (to be applicable) must have similar basis. To me at least, what you cite is like comparing apples to mushrooms.
I think I get the point you were trying to make - 'It doesn't matter who's right - it's the end result that matters'. Or have I still missed it?
June 8, 2008 9:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, it's 10:15 Sunday night, 6/8/08 and I'm tuned in to CNN and they are talking about how many people believe Obama is a muslim and how many people believe he won't salute the flag.
NOT THAT THEY'RE SAYING IT'S SO...THEY ARE JUST REPEATING IT AND REPEATING IT AND REPEATING IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE DO BELIEVE IT'S TRUE! Then they interview people who quote things like, "Well, he ACTS like a muslim, and I HEARD that he won't salute the flag" and then go to a commercial. Rick Sanchez just said, "Barack Obama, sworn into the US Senate on the Koran -- is it true?" Fuck CNN!
Wow! I wonder if a whole bunch of people believed that Jesus was going to show up tomorrow they would do the same thing!!!!!
Answer: Probably
But, If a whole bunch of scientists believed that we are doomed if we keep up our destructive ways, what would they do?
Answer: They would interview all the people (talk-show hosts, and an occasional "scientist")who call global warming a hoax, and ask very pithy questions to the actual experts. In the end, they would shake their heads slowly; indicating that they had given "pro and con" their due, as though that was journalism.
We all know what they would do if George Bush said we might have to see a "mushroom cloud" if we didn't go to war.
Answer: NOthing. They were too afraid of losing access. They -- Do you hear me David Gregory? -- had no honor. This wasn't about asking questions to Bush when he gave a speech; it was about research; reading the facts and then reporting them. You never did that!
June 8, 2008 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hear you loud and clear on this one. I focused on the electoral college crap they were pulling Sunday(see Time Russert is an Idiot) but this crap is endemic to all the "news" networks. They won't get the message that we are sick of this crap until we stop watching and they start going out of business.
June 9, 2008 6:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Reconciliation? Good idea. Hillary was the vitriol thrower; she and her supporters need to make nice. And if she has "18 million supporters" -- well, each throws in a buck and half and her debt is settled She don't need my dime.
June 9, 2008 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink