Strange Reporting of PA Results
Can someone please explain these two apparent anomalies in reporting of the PA results:
1. Everywhere, Hillary's margin is reported as 10%. The two sets of numbers I see as of 6:27 a.m. are the PA secretary of state's and the media's, which show Hillary winning by 8.5% and 9.4% respectively. Has somebody changed the conventions of rounding in Western mathematics?
2. Seems very odd that the results on sites other than the secretary of state's show Hillary's vote total increasing by 23,698 and Obama's total by only 1,161. Did Hillary win a late precinct with 95.3% of the vote?
Funny business by the Rendell machine? Late corrections to earlier errors? Somebody please explain so we can have some confidence in these votes.
Also, has anybody analyzed results to estimate the Limbaugh/Scaife malicious crossover factor? Is it even 1%?
1. Everywhere, Hillary's margin is reported as 10%. The two sets of numbers I see as of 6:27 a.m. are the PA secretary of state's and the media's, which show Hillary winning by 8.5% and 9.4% respectively. Has somebody changed the conventions of rounding in Western mathematics?
2. Seems very odd that the results on sites other than the secretary of state's show Hillary's vote total increasing by 23,698 and Obama's total by only 1,161. Did Hillary win a late precinct with 95.3% of the vote?
Funny business by the Rendell machine? Late corrections to earlier errors? Somebody please explain so we can have some confidence in these votes.
Also, has anybody analyzed results to estimate the Limbaugh/Scaife malicious crossover factor? Is it even 1%?
Advertisement





Yeah, I noticed both of these things as well. The 10% figure is easily explained by the fact that, at least according to media figures, she did have a 10% lead with about 97% reporting. Late returns ate into it, though.
Your second point (which leads to the difference between 9.4% and 8.5%) is really rather odd, and I can think of no rational explanation at this point.
April 23, 2008 7:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Also, before either Clinton or Obama supporters start spouting conspiracy theories, consider that the opposite side can also spout a conspiracy theory.
Crazy Obama supporter: the 8.5% figure is right, and the 9.4% is a result of [insert conspiracy here]
Crazy Clinton supporter: the 9.4% figure is right, and the 8.5% is a result of [insert conspiracy here]
Note: Crazy does not necessarily imply wrong. Who knows, maybe there are two conspiracies!
April 23, 2008 7:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Another thing to chew on... The 1% not reporting is comprised of Deleware and Philadelphia counties. Both are at 97% and Obama is winning Phili 65%-35%, and Deleware (55%-45%). Tough to say how many votes are left as I recall the % does not corelate with the number of people, but rather precincts. For example, there could be three precincts left with a very small number of votes, or with over 50,000.
Since you mentioned it ...
***CONSPIRACY ALERT***
If you're the Clinton campaign it would be nice to hold back the results of some big pro-Obama precincts for a day or so, to make that 10% number settle in. Tout the Double-Digit victory for a few days... then let it trickle down to ~8% or less as the news fades.
Not sure who they could have help them with this though *cough* Rendell *cough* Nutter ;)
April 23, 2008 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Quick update: There are 40 precints in Philadelphia that haven't reported yet. Given the dense population, I can see him picking up a few thousand votes here.
April 23, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
One of the last districts to fully report was Chester County, which had a ten-point margin in favor of Obama. That might have something to do with it.
April 23, 2008 7:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
As lifelongdem points out, however, it requires a 90% margin (95% vs 5%) in order to account for the discrepancies, and in Clinton's favor, not Obama's.
You're right about Chester County, but that only makes the mystery bigger.
April 23, 2008 7:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I'm saying that maybe a lot of them skipped over Chester county in their tallying because it hadn't come in yet. Chances are, it's a lot of tiny things that happened, rather than one big thing.
April 23, 2008 7:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
One big thing or lots of tiny things, it's still damn peculiar that it'd be 95% Clinton.
April 23, 2008 8:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I just realized that an implicit assumption of mine is probably false. I was assuming (without thinking about it) that the districts reported by the state were a subset of the districts reported by the media. Add a 51/49 split here, subtract a 49/51 split there, and the difference can be a 95/5 split, depending on the relative sizes of those two splits.
April 23, 2008 8:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
I grew up in Chester County! My old stomping grounds did me proud!
I know one of those votes was from my 86-year-old mother.... on the other hand, my 31-year-old nephew's vote for HRC probably canceled her out...
April 23, 2008 8:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Same here! It's nice to see, but I think the area will still go to McCain come November. Shame.
April 23, 2008 8:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Recommended, by the way, as I'd like to see this discussed some—even if it does mean listening to a few conspiracy theories.
April 23, 2008 7:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Kos claims that Delaware County's own numbers agree with those reported by the AP - and not with those from the PA DoS. So that seems to be the source of the discrepancy, and suggests that the AP has it right. (All of these numbers are preliminary - while the DoS's numbers will ultimately be the only ones that matter, that's true only after the returns are certified. And things like this crop up.)
Even so, that doesn't excuse reporting a 10-point margin. My favorite formulations of the morning come from CNN ("beating Obama by about 10-percentage points") and the Baltimore Sun ("roughly" 10 points). How exactly does that work, guys? Will CNN and the Sun henceforth round 9 up to 10, because they're "about" or "roughly" the same thing?
I can see it now. Health reports on the "roughly ten" months of pregnancy. A movie review of the new Nicole Kidman flick, "Ten." A music feature on the latest album from "Ten Inch Nails." A legal story on the latest Supreme Court ruling - there are about ten justices, and they split roughly 5-5 in their latest decision, confusing the heck out of legal experts...
Too much fun.
April 23, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ordinarily this sort of 2% swing in reporting the margin of victory wouldn't matter, but I got focused on it because of all the talk on MSNBC and CNN. Somebody was saying Hillary needed to win by at least 10% to keep her hopes alive. Somebody else said just winning by 7% or 8% definitely wouldn't be enough given the delegate count and the extremely favorable demographics in PA.
Since everybody agreed the margin was key, it's strange that nobody reported it accurately. Stranger still that everybody reported it as just what Hillary needed for PR purposes.
It does look to me as though it was just media laziness at work. Nobody bothered to check the actual numbers and calculations - they just grabbed the rounded AP numbers and blew them up on front pages everywhere. And on TV, we had nonstop commentary on the significance of a margin of victory that was inaccurately reported as the double digit margin she needed. "Big win for Hillary!"
She did win, but it looks as though it was close enough to leave the delegate count essentially the same. I didn't hear anybody mention that part (not that I watched continuously - and I missed whatever Chuck Todd had to say last night).
April 23, 2008 9:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
He mentioned it as a caveat but said that it's now about the popular vote.
April 23, 2008 10:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed, that would mean claiming that Nicole Kidman and Bo Derek are one and the same. The travesties of our media.
April 23, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm truly puzzled. I didn't follow returns minute to minute, but when I did check, the margin bounced around between 8% and 10% (on the TV crawl).
It's odd that even now the 55-45% reported everywhere, including on the web - which lacks hard print deadlines - does not correspond to any data I can find.
In terms of margin, it's a significant win for Hillary whether it's 8.5% or 9.4%. But it's hard not to wonder if some partisan individual in charge of a single data feed to all major media (and TPM) is intentionally fudging the numbers to get Hillary into double digits. It's equally hard to believe that each and every major media outlet (and TPM) has independently obtained accurate data and decided to round up in a very unconventional way.
Should we lack confidence in the data, in the reporting, or both? Or, as a math-challenged country, should we accept the inconsistencies as the best we can do?
April 23, 2008 7:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
See storm's explanation below. 54.7 gets rounded to 55 and 45.3 gets rounded to 45. 55-45 = 10, although 54.7-45.3 = 9.4.
April 23, 2008 7:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
rounding before differencing explains the 9.4 reported as 10
April 23, 2008 7:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
54.3, 45.6, explain that rounding again?
April 23, 2008 7:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
i see 1258 - 1042 which is a 9.4% difference
April 23, 2008 8:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are two sets of numbers. The state's numbers give 54.3% vs 45.6%, but the media's numbers have 54.7% vs. 45.3%. The latter one becoming 10% instead of 9% can be explained by premature rounding. As for the discrepancy between those two sets of numbers, that's a different mystery.
April 23, 2008 8:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
An innocent but still ridiculous explanation?
By the set of numbers NOT from the secretary of state, Hillary has 54.69% and Obama has 45.31%. So it just looks as though the rounding was done to the individual numbers to get 55% and 45%, making the margin look bigger than it is.
If the same approach applied to the secretary of state's numbers, it would be 54.2% for Hillary and 45.8% for Obama, so you would round, presumably, to 54%-46%.
Psychologically, that's a big swing.
April 23, 2008 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry I hadn't refreshed the screen and noticed Storm's explanation before I posted this message.
So whose numbers are right? Do media numbers trump the secretary of state? It is possible, of course, that whoever compiles numbers for media does a better job than the state.
April 23, 2008 8:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Except that it is the numbers compiled by the Secy of State that are certified as the "official" results of the election, not AP's.
Remember, the delightful time back in Florida 2000, where the scrumptious, over-Estee Laudered, Chanel-suited Kathryn Harris kept us on pins and needles for weeks as she determined which numbers would count.
Perhaps we should bombard other media sites with the math question -- Is 9.4 the same as 10?
April 23, 2008 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, CNN has it on their site as of 3:09 AM at 54.3 to 45.6, not 54.7 to 45.3 and Delaware County (Obama up 55-45) and Philly City (Obama up 60-40) as the only two counties not at 100% (both at 97%).
April 23, 2008 8:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, how did Delaware reverse itself? I looked last night before I went to bed, and Clinton was in the lead. By a smaller margin, but still.
April 23, 2008 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
BTW, it's 65%-35% now.
April 23, 2008 8:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Philly, I mean.
April 23, 2008 8:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
It will probably be corrected later today. I think the media gets their numbers from the AP.
April 23, 2008 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, that unbiased AP with people like Nedra Pickler.
I think it is obvious that Big Media is slanted in favor of Clinton, if only to continue the race and create "drama"
April 23, 2008 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
The PA Secretary of State has updated numbers with 99.34% of precincts reporting; they still appear to leave Hillary's vote count short of the AP total by more than 20,000.
Percentages from state are now:
Clinton: 54.26
Obama: 45.74
That's a margin of 8.52%. The votes trickling in appear to be decreasing the margin slightly.
If we're using AP rounding rules, it's now 54% to 46%, an 8% margin. If the numbers move another .03 Obama's way, it would obviously round to 8% the old-fashioned way.
There's an error, however, in either the AP or the state numbers.
April 23, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
TPM says these numbers are outdated. But in their post mentioning this, they also say that Obama has more votes 1,043,174 in the state count than in the AP count 1,042,297.
How is this possible? Do the 'updated' AP numbers include supervoters with the ability to cast negative votes for Obama?
I would guess that the AP extrapolated the remaining votes from what was already counted, and that the votes trickling in are ending up being strongly for Obama. (Didn't this happen in Missouri?)
If there is a more rational explanation for this phenomenon, I would love to here it.
April 23, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently there are negative votes as SoS site now has Obama votes at 1,029,672.
April 23, 2008 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe there was a mistake in the tally?
April 23, 2008 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I don't know about conspiracy theories, but it appears that the PA SoS is adjusting the tally as more results come in. Right now, the top of the page says this:
And it shows these results:
So, apparently, the spread is 9.2%, with less than a percentage point remaining out, albeit unofficially. That's seems a considerable difference when compared to the 8.5% that you noted earlier. It would be good to hear an explanation for the difference from the SoS.
(P.S. I didn't even try to use much html coding to get the formatting to look right. If it turned out all wonky, my apologies.)
April 23, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Precisely, with regard to letting results sink in. The mindless narrative in this country dictates that we can't comprehend small movements. The MSM will not cease their position that Hillary won Texas, which she, of course, did not.
April 23, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://politics.nytimes.com/election-guide/2008/results/states/PA.html
This says Hilary only has one more delegate than Obama.
April 23, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hate to point this out, but if your candidate would just win a primary we wouldn't have to worry about this noise.
April 23, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
He has.
Washington (caucus AND primary), Utah, Missouri, Wisconsin, Illinois, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware (even delegate split despite 10-point spread favoring Obama in the returns), Connecticut, Vermont. In case you're as math-challenged as you are fact- and logic-challenged, that's 15 states to Clinton's 14. (You can count Texas as a win for Clinton, but only in the primary, and only if you ignore that Obama won the delegate count in TX.)
Add in caucuses and you raise that total to 27. That counts TX.
Desidero, you're a real piece of work. Not getting desperate by any chance, are you?
April 23, 2008 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a ridiculous piece of spin right here, no?
Mrs. Bill Inevitable Clinton, the bearer of the top brand name of the Democratic Party for the last 15 years, who was supposed to have won the nomination by no later than Feb 5, has been running a shambles of a campaign, is being out-matched by the junior Senator from Illinois (the insurgent candidate), and Camp Hillary and the Republicans are spreading this bullshit talking point: "What's wrong with Barack Obama that he can't seem to beat Hillary already?"
Idiotic.
April 24, 2008 1:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now Laura, don't go insulting our beloved idiotic. Okay?
;->
April 25, 2008 3:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
You could add Minnesota to the list of primaries because what we have is a "presidential preference ballot" -- NOT a caucus for the presidential choice.
We also have a caucus that same night for other elected positions and party business; the presidential choice is NOT part of the caucus session.
April 24, 2008 1:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Randi Rhodes was talking today about the Republican crossover vote and how the Limbaugh effect fizzled in PA. This doesn't surprise me because it is a closed primary so people have to formally register as a dem to vote. Obama had a healthy majority of the crossover vote (not sure the exact amount) showing that he does appeal to the disenchanted former Republicans much more than she does. I'm sure that there was some Limbaugh vote in there too.
In an open primary it is easier to crossover as you don't need to be registered to a specific party to vote in that party. TX has an open primary and the Limbaugh effect is believed to have been large there, estimated at 119,000 votes (Obama lost the primary vote by 109,000). Ohio has a closed primary but there was a strong push for faux Hillary votes. The Limbaugh effect was thought to be large there also based on exit polls. Later it was publicized that technically it was voter fraud since they had to make a sworn party declaration in OH. There was talk of filing suit against Limbaugh so that may have tamped it down for PA since theirs was closed. Indiana has an open primary and NC's is closed.
April 24, 2008 3:20 AM | Reply | Permalink